Recorded on July 31, 2007
Summary
Alan Steinfeld hosts a discussion on the evolving human potential, focusing on the synthesis of mystical awareness with modern relationship models. The conversation delves into the Kabbalistic and Tantric perspectives on sexuality, the divine connection between men and women, and the importance of conscious relationships.
Transcript
Alan Steinfeld
Welcome, welcome to New Realities with Alan Steinfeld. This program is dedicated to exp Laurieng evolving human potentials in an evolving world. I look at people and situations that will get us out of our automatic behaviors, so we can become more conscious of our mind, body, and spirit. This program is constantly on the lookout for new and different perspectives in achieving a greater and more peaceful reality for the planet. It’s about embracing a rational synthesis with a mystical awareness, and tonight’s program is very much in that line. I have a really good guess I have two parts of this program, both talking about, I would say, the mystical understanding of human nature along with sensuality, sexuality, the embrace of love, and how the two come together. Tonight’s first guest is Ohad Ezrahi. Is that right, Ohad? Ezrahi. Ezrahi. And you are very much involved with Kabbalah as well as the modern understanding of love and sensuality and sexuality. How do you How are the two resolved? The ancient study of Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism along with, you know, a contemporary model of sexuality. Is that your Is that really your
Ohad Ezrahi
Well, sexuality is not a modern thing. It’s not a new… No, we do it since the beginning of creation, right? So the thing is to do it in an open way and a connected way. The sickness of today is that people are doing it in an alienated way, with a lot of alienation. They are cut from their heart. They are cut from spirit. They are cut from each other. So that’s one. And the other is basically that the whole secret of Kabbalah and the whole essence of Kabbalah is about what we call unification, which is how to bring reality deeper into oneness. And a lot of it is working about unifying masculine and feminine energies in the world, inside ourselves, and inside divinity. So what we do is applying it to couples, applying it to human beings and taking the principles that are coming from Kabbalah and saying, okay, if those principles are working, you know, in the divine world, let’s see, let’s apply it to human beings. And interesting, it works.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, it works. So what are the ancient teachings in your understanding of sexuality and in terms of Kabbalah? What is it that you’re applying and what has worked through the centuries?
Ohad Ezrahi
Well, the teachings, as I said, what we do with, and when I say we, it’s my wife Dawn and myself, we established a school that’s called Kabbalah, which is bringing the teachings of Kabbalah into love life and the reality of modern people that are in relationships. So what we do is we took, as I said, principles of teaching that are speaking originally about divine energy and applied to human beings. For instance, in the core of Kabbalah, there is, there are three stages of development of the relationship between the feminine and the masculine energies, essences, in divinity.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, could you go through those? Go through those three stages, those three basic, formation structures. What are they? Yes.
Ohad Ezrahi
Of course. Of course. So the first stage of relationship is what we call back-to-back. We symbolize it as if there are kind of people, a man and a woman or the masculine and feminine are standing back-to-back. And it’s a symbol. It’s a metaphor. Right. It symbolizes a relationship that I don’t see you. We don’t see each other really. And by seeing, we mean like deeply seeing. You know, we can be by each other and live with each other for a long time, but not really see each other because what we see is we see the other as means to what we need from them. Right. So that’s it.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s like what in the David Data work, if you know his work, he would maybe call it a first stage relationship.
Ohad Ezrahi
Yeah, not only that I, yeah, David Deida, I know David Deida’s work very much, and actually we became close friends because we saw that the teachings that I came to from Kabbalah and his teachings are really coming together in a very clear way. It really is what David Deida calls first stage. Right.
Alan Steinfeld
I can see that. Well, you don’t really see it’s very traditional. The relationship you’re not really connected to the other person in an intimate way. That would be what you’re describing as a back to back.
Ohad Ezrahi
Well, it might be very, people might think that it’s very intimate because they need each other. When I mean in a back-to-back relationship, there is a need, a strong need of the other person. Like the man or the masculine needs the feminine and the feminine needs the masculine because none of them is perfect. None of them is whole. None of them is perfect, but none of them is whole because the masculine is not aware of his feminine aspect. And the feminine is not aware of her masculine aspect.
Alan Steinfeld
So, the next stage then is what?
Ohad Ezrahi
And then when we grow from that and when energy is growing for that from that coming, what’s coming next is a stage that is called in Kabbalah, Nessira, it’s in Hebrew and it’s called like the the sawing of the two, like in the back-to-back they were like attached back-to-back. Siamese twins. But then comes the separation between the two. So the second stage of development is when the two are separated. It’s separate. Right.
Alan Steinfeld
So they would be side-by-side or just separate individuals?
Ohad Ezrahi
Yeah. Separate individuals. But they’re still in relationships.
Alan Steinfeld
Right.
Ohad Ezrahi
It’s a relationships of two people that each one of them finds himself or herself like a whole being and not needing the other. So they don’t need each other. Just decided to be together, to be to get together. So they have, and their togetherness is kind of a kind of a business almost, you know, it might be a marriage, it might be a relationship, but they have a kind of a business together, which calls the families. So we raise a family together. Of course, there is no no, so much attraction in this in this stage.
Alan Steinfeld
It’s like a partnership. You would say more like Hillary and Bill Clinton sort of have that, it seems like.
Ohad Ezrahi
Yeah, exactly. So people hold themselves, you know, the partner of each other. And what’s specific, what’s specifically important about this this stage is that the feminine in Kabbalah, the feminine is growing in this stage and is developing very rapidly. Basically, when they spoke about it in the 13th and the 16th century, they kind of
Alan Steinfeld
One would say that they saw in advance the feminist movement. Well, because traditional Judaism really, I would say, from what I know, and I’m being Jewish and I don’t really know it like you do, I’m not a , but there was a very much inferior treatment. I mean, they would treat women as inferior. In what I would sense to be traditional Judaism, is that true or not true? Is that a distortion?
Ohad Ezrahi
It’s not a distortion. It’s in all the traditional, all the traditional worlds. It’s not a Jewish thing in the traditional worlds.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. Islamic, Christian. Right. Second class citizen. So,
Ohad Ezrahi
Yeah, some ways of second class. There’s a lot to say about it. But basically what the traditional world kind of gave a choice to women. You can either be inferior in some ways, but respected, you know, be a second class, but in society will marry you, will love you, will respect you, we’ll see as a second class, but still you’re here. Or you can be the negative one, which is, which is called and symbolized by Lilith in the Jewish mythology. So if you choose to develop your powers, your independence, your sexuality, then you’ll be, you’ll be attractive, you know, but we will not have a place for you in our society and then you’re you kind of, we classify you as belonging to the dark aspect of sanity. And that’s very sad.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, can I ask you a separate question because I’ve only heard hearsay references to Lilith, but there’s no formal reference in the Bible or the five books of Moses to Lilith. Where does that mythology come from, Lilith?
Ohad Ezrahi
Oh yeah, well, I don’t know if you know, but I wrote a whole book about Lilith. It’s called Who’s Afraid of Lilith?
Alan Steinfeld
No, I would love to get that because where does the original story come from if it’s not…
Ohad Ezrahi
Yeah. The original, the original story of, of Lilith comes from Midrash. Midrash is a Jewish, Jewish mythology or wisdom stories that is coming from Babylon in the 9th century. And that’s the first full story of Lilith, but there are, there are sources before that, but we don’t have the full story of the origin of Lilith. So from the second century we all, we already have the origin of the story but not the full one.
Alan Steinfeld
I see that’s where it comes from. Yeah, so okay, get back to the third stage.
Ohad Ezrahi
Okay, so when, in the second stage, so what, this despite the fact that, that they were in a traditional world, that women were, seen as inferior, Kabbalistic teaching in those centuries said, no! It shouldn’t be like that! And that’s an immature state. They look at it backwards as an immature state. And they said we need to develop a state that we call the time to come. What they taught back then was that in the future, meaning when we are developed enough, those the feminine and the masculine energies, the man and the woman, if you look at it in modern times, would be equal. And the symbol for that was like the moon receiving equal energy exactly equal to the sun. It’s a, its own independent energy that is equal to the sun.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, wait, let me just ask you, does that mean they saw women coming up in, so there was actually a place for women in the ancient Kabbalistic tradition then?
Ohad Ezrahi
Of course. Yes, there is, and there is very surprising material that was written in those centuries in the 13th and the 16th century about the development and the independence and the growing up of women.
Alan Steinfeld
Did they sort of predict the times that we’re in now, would you say?
Ohad Ezrahi
I think so. They did predict it and also in the like there were people that already wrote and called for the independence of women like there was a very special Kabbalist in the 17th century that came and said women you need to be independent. You need to be not dependent on your husbands and all this.
Alan Steinfeld
But how does that fit into the traditional Jewish you know religion? Because it seems so separate from what you know what we see today as traditional Jewish religion.
Ohad Ezrahi
It’s kind of a shrinked version of the traditional Jewish religion after the Holocaust and all that. The world of Jewish religion was much more developed and open and interesting and a lot of variety out there.
Alan Steinfeld
Would you say that the idea of many partners comes from the ancient Jewish tradition as well? Because I think there was non-monogamy. Is that part of the original culture? Like Abraham had wives and it came out of a Middle Eastern culture.
Ohad Ezrahi
Yeah, non-monogamy was, you know, seeing in the ancient world, but it was, it was only for men. Non-monogamy for women, believe it or not, there is, there are some clues about it that it will be opened in the days of Messiah, you know, in the end of days, which some people say, well, say, say today, it’s today, you know, some people would say, we need to bring Messiah by doing, by working on that. So there are clues, even in the Talmud that, that speaks about the ability for even women to have more than one partner. But the question is, you know, do we know how to, how to make one partner really, really happy? Can we do it with more?
Alan Steinfeld
Right, right. That’s true. How can we make more than one partner happy if we can’t make one partner? Okay. Exactly. So we covered those three stages, basically, then, right?
Ohad Ezrahi
No, we covered two. The third stage…
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, the two. The third stage, yes.
Ohad Ezrahi
Yeah. The third stage of development is called face-to-face. Right, and it’s coming back together with a lot of passion. the feminine, masculine. And the third stage of development in the face-to-face stage, they are equal in Kabbalah, but they say we are equal, but we want to give different gifts to each other. So I’m not coming together with my partner because I need her in the third stage. I don’t need her. I’m separate. You know, I’m a whole being. But I’m coming back together because there is something unique that I want to give her because I’m masculine, and there’s something unique that she wants to give me because she is feminine. And this is a different,
Alan Steinfeld
So let me just interrupt you there for a second. I understand. It’s a different perspective than traditional relationship. But in the Kabbalah Center, you know, the Rav Berg tradition, he says women are coming together with men to help their correction, Tikkun, to help them complete their things. And women are already complete unto themselves, but they just…
Ohad Ezrahi
Should I say that I don’t see what the Kabbalah Center teaches as real Kabbalah?
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. I just wanted to get your opinion. That’s okay. No, you know, yeah. I think that’s great to express that. I was a little suspicious of them myself. But you know, there is kind of traditional thought there that is not really, really, you know, evoked and open on one hand.
Ohad Ezrahi
It seems very limited in a way and very watered down. I mean, what I get from the people at the Kabbalah Center, I mean, they have something and they’re offering some people some kind of spirituality, but I think it seems like what you’re doing is going deeper. Well, I don’t like to talk about other people like that, but I’m just matter, I just want to say that there are many branches in Kabbalah, and there are many branches of in Kabbalah from the early days of Kabbalah. So one can choose, you know, how deep and how radical you want to go. Right.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. So as the man and women stand face to face and they offer each other gifts, then what, where do we go from there? I mean, that’s, that is the highest stage of relationship in…
Ohad Ezrahi
That’s the re, really the highest stage of relationships. Because in this stage, you are not focusing about yourself, but you are focusing about gifting the other with your gifts. from a non-needy place and because you’re not anymore protecting your separate being so much so you allow yourself to rest into your true nature. And also because because of that because you rest into your true nature whether you’re more masculine whether you’re more feminine there is again a whole lot of of passion. So in this, in this higher stage, which is basically the aim, where Kabbalah is aiming to, in the connection of female and male masculine feminine, there is divinity, there is sacredness that comes together with passion. And this is something, you know, that people don’t really understand, and I think that’s, when I, when I decided to work on, on relationships and Kabbalah, it came because of that, because I saw that many people when they think about passion, they kind of leave God behind. Right.
Alan Steinfeld
So how do you, okay, so how do you bring God back into that? Because you’ve just described a really, base the basic highest stage of relationship but so where is the the God come back into that in terms of Kabbalah and Judaism.
Ohad Ezrahi
Well, God comes, God consciousness comes to comes to this relationship area when we are developed enough to to see us and the other person as the face of God. To see the passion between us two as God passioning to oneself to God’s self so you see the sexual occasion and sexual attraction itself as something that is not far from sacredness, but you sort of feel that sexual passion is basically sacred passion. It’s hard to say, it’s really connected to a kind of deep core of understanding.
Alan Steinfeld
Is that an ancient Kabbalistic understanding or is that something you yes it is it is it’s a in kabbalah there is what I call radical kabbalists and one of one of the beloved and great teachers of radical kabbalah he wrote this quote he said like that he said When I was young, I thought that to be a sacred person, you need to leave behind any sexual pleasure. Like, to avoid sexual pleasure. And I was kind of practicing that. And he said, and after years of practice, God just had grace on me and showed me the deep secret. And the deep secret is that pleasure is sacred.
Ohad Ezrahi
Pleasure is sacred. Who was that writer? Who’s the writer of that? Did you say that’s radical Kabbalah?
Alan Steinfeld
Well, his name was Baruch of Kosov. He’s, you know, you need, yeah. He’s not such an unknown author, unless you’re in the Hasidic world. In the Hasidic world, he’s very known.
Ohad Ezrahi
What’s his name? Baruch? Baruch. Baruch is, was his first name and he’s from Kosov, from the city of Kosov. Up to Kosov.
Alan Steinfeld
But you know the Hasidic really sort of, of seen like they’re very uptight about sex, don’t you think?
Ohad Ezrahi
Today, today, but, you know, that’s what happened. It’s very, it’s so sad because the Hasidic movement started with teachers that were so radical and they were dealing with sexuality and attraction and the whole, the whole teaching of a facet, of mysticism in the in the core of it is how to go into the body and into sensation and work with that as sacred event. Like when you feel pleasure or pain, whatever you feel in your body and sensation, how to see God through that, not to avoid it, not to deny it, but to go deeper into it and feel it as a sacred feeling. Who originated the Hasidic movement? The Baal Shem Tov. Oh, the Baal Shem Tov. In what century is that? The 18th century.
Alan Steinfeld
Because the way you’re describing God, it’s a different concept than some father figure in the sky. It’s a whole another Of course. Well, this is what most Western Jews, Christians, Muslims even have this idea of this figure in the sky.
Ohad Ezrahi
Alan, we need to grow up. We need to grow up from also understanding religion in a very shallow way. You know, religion has a shallow aspect.
Alan Steinfeld
Of course. So how do you define God, then?
Ohad Ezrahi
God is inde-, you can’t define God. God is not something to be defined.
Alan Steinfeld
But would you say God is everything, every minute, every moment, everything, I mean not an individualized entity.
Ohad Ezrahi
God is not an object. But then who is Jehovah, YHVH, who’s that represented in terms of Kabbalah? That’s, those letters, the Y, H, W, H, are the letters of breath. It’s, if you give the sound of it, it’s, and in the Bible it’s written actually with no vowels. So it’s just, it’s just the sound of the of the breath, it’s the breath of life. It’s the power that is breathing existence into being all the time. You can say that God is everything that exist and everything that does not exist altogether.
Alan Steinfeld
It’s a radical understanding of Judaism and religion, because most people today do not have that understanding that you’re, that you’re giving us right here, you know?
Ohad Ezrahi
Of course. And it’s a, you know, it’s kind of a pity and it’s sad. But we need to know that within the mysticism of religion there is a lot of depth and we’re not supposed to think about it only in a shallow way. There are of course, as I said, there are shallow aspects and religion is kind of opiate to the masses, you know. But beyond that shallow level, there were, you know, really deep, really radical s and, and scholars and mystics, and we need to look for what they said, because they were quite wise and developed and evolved people.
Alan Steinfeld
Do you want to hold on while I get another guest on the line who’s teaching about Tantra?
Ohad Ezrahi
Please, yeah, I’m here.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. Scott, can you get the second guest on?
MUSIC BREAK
Hi, this is Alan Steinfeld, I’m back here with Ohad. I’m talking about a new understanding of Judaism, especially as it connects to sensuality and male-female relationships. So Ohad, where do we go from here now that we have this new understanding of relationships, the male and female equal? What’s the next evolution of that?
Ohad Ezrahi
Beyond being equal, we need to know
Alan Steinfeld
What are you teaching in your workshops, how is it that you proceed from that point?
Ohad Ezrahi
Yeah, from that point we need to know how to give our unique gifts. I mean, there is equalness, but then there is the variety and the beauty of the variety between the, what it is that I, I was, you know, I came to this world as a man. And what it is that my partner came as a woman. And what can we gift each other from that place that will make love just beautiful and blossoming.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, how do you draw that out of your partner? How do you, how do you pull those gifts out of each other or out of yourself?
Ohad Ezrahi
Well, no, no, no, we’re not throwing out of each other, well, making the other blossom. So I’m constantly asking myself, how, what can I take out of myself to be, so, so I will be able to make my partner radiant and blossoming more and more.
Alan Steinfeld
What do you, I mean, it’s like unconditional love, are you saying, is what something?
Ohad Ezrahi
Well, unconditional love is very good, but the question is how do you practice it?
Alan Steinfeld
Well, how do you practice it, then?
Ohad Ezrahi
So there are practices and I, you know, there are, they’re not, for the phone or for the radio, but what we do in our workshops is we give practices to people and we we go deeper into studying and into practicing. It’s a lab.
Alan Steinfeld
Just give me an example, we don’t have to go through the practice, but just tell me an example of what kind, would it be like eye gazing, would it be like breathing together? What is it?
Ohad Ezrahi
Well, this is part of it. This is definitely part of it, but a lot of it will be of, of realizing the other as, as a divine being and seeing deeper and deeper into the other, and also practicing showing the gifts of, which we didn’t speak about at all. What is the gift of the feminine? What is the gift of the masculine?
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, can you go into that a little bit?
Ohad Ezrahi
Yeah, we can.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. And then we’ll also maybe Laurie will come on, who’s a teacher of Tantra, who’s looking at the same thing from a more eastern Indian perspective. But go ahead, go into the gifts of…
Ohad Ezrahi
Let’s symbolize it as the sun and the moon, which is one of the symbols that Kabbalah is working with. So we see the sun as a masculine symbol and the moon as a feminine symbol. Right. So what’s happening with the sun? It’s set in place. It doesn’t go anywhere. It’s just there shining present, ever present, ever shining, and it’s giving a center.
Alan Steinfeld
So you would say that’s sort of the gift of the sun in a sense?
Ohad Ezrahi
That’s the gift of the sun, exactly. To be there, to be present. So the present, the presence of the masculine is deep presence.
Alan Steinfeld
and stillness, presence constant. This is, goes back to the David Data stuff. I mean, this is basically
Ohad Ezrah
It’s very I said it in the beginning. It’s very what I what I love about David Deida’s work, which is I think the best work, is that it’s so close to Kabbalistic understanding. It’s amazing how close it is.
Alan Steinfeld
So then the gift, so the gift of the moon then is what then?
Ohad Ezrah
Well, let’s look at the moon. The moon is constantly changing. Uh huh. Constantly in motion and changing. The moon is, you know, circling the Earth and circling the Sun and growing and going down and you know, full moon, empty moon, new moon. So the gift of the feminine is the change and the energy that is changing in motion all the time. And shining, shining the the feminine light, which is never the same. That’s the beauty of the feminine. It’s never the same. It’s constantly changing.
Alan Steinfeld
So the man, the male energy has to understand that about the female energy. And
Ohad Ezrah
Yeah, when we don’t understand that we, we clash, there’s so many misunderstandings in relationship.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, because most men want women to be constant. I mean, at least the ones I know and my own mean, know, it’s, it’s, it’s, we have to adjust to the fact that women are always changing, you know, I mean, general.
Ohad Ezrah
Well, most men want to, two different contradict they contradict themselves because on one hand, they want a feminine woman. They yearn for the feminine gift and they really want a feminine energy. Yeah. On the other hand they they block feminine energy by basically trying to control women and to tell them like to behave what’s called in.
Alan Steinfeld
Why why would they do that why do men do that to women
Ohad Ezrah
Because we don’t, because from a male perspective, from a man’s perspective, the feminine being is chaotic. Uh huh.
Ohad Ezrahi
And therefore threatening. Wild. Threatening. Misunder like it, it sounds, it feels crazy. The emotions, the drama, the whole thing, it just feels chaotic and crazy. And from a male perspective it’s like, what’s, what’s happening with you, like come back to center, you know, behave or, you know, be a match. Be a human being, but.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. So how does the male then start to appreciate that special gift of the woman which is constantly changing, you know, the David Deida says the woman is like the ocean, constantly different and moving.How do we learn to appreciate that?
Ohad Ezrahi
First of all, you need to decide whether you really want to receive this gift of of the feminine. And then you need to learn how to appreciate it and not to be afraid of it. One of the things is that men are actually also afraid of the power of the feminine. Once you learn to be free in your masculine being, which means you are free in your presence, you’re here, you are able not to not to fidget, not to not to shut off, not to be flaky. You’re just you’re just present with a lot of inner freedom. Which means
Alan Steinfeld
I think the more the male energy gets in touch with itself, it appreciates that dynamic energy of the feminine because it allows the male to be more itself. You can only be strong in your masculine as you embrace the strong feminine. And the two start to build a power together as well. That dynamic stillness is the embrace of the masculine and feminine coming together.
Ohad Ezrahi
Yes, but the question is where do you start? And as a man, you start from embracing your own masculinity and the power of the masculine.
Alan Steinfeld
But still, that still presence. I mean, if we go back to what the sun is, that’s still shining presence, embracing that.
Ohad Ezrahi
Still shines, yes. And presence, loving presence and freedom, deep freedom, which freedom not freedom from the feminine. And many, many men think that you know, to be free is not is not to be held by a woman. You know, not to be free from here. It’s not to be free from here. It’s to be free to love her.
Alan Steinfeld
To be free to love her. But so many women are coming also from desperation that, you know, it becomes you know, women want to hold on because they they feel that that gives them power. They need to find that power in themselves first as well, right?
Ohad Ezrahi
Mm-hmm. Well, that’s when you come from a needy place, you’re in the back-to-back stage that we spoke before. If you’re coming from a needy place, of course, a woman will want to, you know, hold a man and kind of an obsessive, obsessive way. And a man will always search for another woman and another woman, another woman.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, right. So to come face-to-face, the man and the woman from a, both empowered place is to appreciate your own gift and the gift of the other.
Ohad Ezrahi
And to learn how to shine your own gift. And it’s not easy because our modern world does actually no doesn’t know how to shine masculine gift and nor how to shine feminine.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, how do you describe it shining the masculine gift? What does that look like?
Producer
Laurie is on the line. Laurie is on the line. Okay. Laurie, we’ll be right with you. Ohad, just answer that question. Then we’ll talk to Laurie about the feminine. Okay, tell me the…
Ohad Ezrahi
To shine masculine gift is is to be so free that you can love in reality, you’re not you’re not escaping reality, you’re not escaping women and reality, but you are free to be in the world free to love, free to give your gift without checking out. You’re not checking out, you’re present and you are reliable and trustworthy.
Alan Steinfeld
Laurie, are you there?
Laurie Handlers
I’m here.
Alan Steinfeld
Laurie Handlers everybody. Teacher of tantra, author of sex and happiness. New very exciting book on relationships, couples, sexuality. So we’ve been talking about the gifts of the male and female and how they can come together. Do you want to give us a feminine tantric perspective on the gift of the feminine?
Laurie Handlers
I would. I just got in, I just heard the last moment of your guest, what’s your name, Ohad?
Alan Steinfeld
Oh okay, well he’s still on.
Laurie Handlers
Yeah, yeah I just want to acknowledge what he said and say I rarely have ever heard a man speaking like that. About being free to give your gift and love and not check out. So I, just, I got really excited hearing that.
Ohad Ezrahi
Thank you.
Laurie Handlers
Thank you. So the feminine perspective on the feminine gift?
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, as a woman, you know, give us that what is it that a woman’s gift you give in a tantric relationship, in a fully enlightened, romantic sexual relationship?
Laurie Handlers
I feel women can give, women give, if it’s a pure give of the feminine. It’s to give from their heart total love and embracing all that is. And it’s also receiving what comes back. And all of this play that I’m talking about has like no strings. Has nothing to do with how many dinners he buys me or what kind of a ring am I going to get on my finger. It’s not that. It’s really simply being in the dance and giving love from the heart, love from the yoni, you know sexuality, with the gift, meaning the true gift nothing expected in return and..
Alan Steinfeld
What is the tantric perspective cause you are a teacher of tantra.
Laurie Handlers
Whatever comes back.Okay.
Alan Steinfeld
Because Ohad’s perspective is very much connected or an alignment with David Deida’s work.
Laurie Handlers
Well, so in the David Data paradigm, I didn’t know that. In the David Data paradigm, I guess it would be total devotion.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, not devotion. It’s,I think it’s more recognizing the divinity in each other and being free to allow your partner to give and receive. That’s what I would say.
Laurie Handlers
Okay. Yeah, I just I think I just said that, but I didn’t couch it in exactly those terms.
Alan Steinfeld
But yeah. But how is how does Tantra sit into that then? Do you know what I’m asking?
Laurie Handlers
I actually think it’s the other way around. I think it’s how does that fit into Tantra?
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. How does that fit into Tantra then? Also define Tantra, because so many people define it so many different ways.
Laurie Handlers
Okay. Well, I’ll start with that, and then I’ll speak about how one thing fits into the other or how they connect really, because so Tantra is the feminine aspect, the mother of yogas. And, the best way for me to say, I can say how it’s defined, which is expansion through awareness is one particular definition. I like to think of it as transformation through pleasure. They’re being able to receive both genders, to be able to receive, and how I like to compare it to yoga in general, the kind of yoga that people practice, where there’s a yoga studio on every corner, of the United States today, or sometimes there’s two yoga studios down a block.
Alan Steinfeld
Right.
Laurie Handlers
The yoga that most people are practicing is the masculine form, which all comes from hatha yoga. And was, preserved when India was invaded. And so it was able to flourish and it’s come to the United States. And what hatha yoga is about is strength, stamina, flexibility and control.
Alan Steinfeld
Right.
Laurie Handlers
Which are masculine aspects. And wonderful to have. Wonderful. Especially for your lover.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. That’s what Ohad was saying, to think of it as the sun. In the kabbalistic terms, that’s what they call it. Is that true? That’s right. Yes. Okay. So,
Laurie Handlers
Yeah. And then Tantra would be the feminine aspect which which educates you in chaos and the unknown, navigating chaos and navigating the unknown, which is out of control.
Alan Steinfeld
And that’s what he was also saying about the feminine nature, is sort of out of control from a male perspective, but it’s the dance, it’s the movement, it’s the… You would call it the unknown? Is that
Laurie Handlers
Yes, I do. I call it Latihan. Well,
Alan Steinfeld
Latihan is, is that an Indonesian word for just the experiencing of the moment, right?
Laurie Handlers
Yes. And being only guided by inner guidance, moment-to-moment by impulse.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. And I, and I like the first chapter of your book called making love in the unknown.
Laurie Handlers
Yeah. Well, that’s the dessert. It’s actually, the tenth law of intimacy. And I give it to people first because I like to give people dessert before they eat the meal. They can have dessert first and then they can get past whatever else. One through nine.
Alan Steinfeld
So Ohad, does that make sense in your paradigm?
Ohad Ezrahi
Absolutely, absolutely. That’s the exactly the the feminine gift is giving the energy, the unknown, the mystery, the ever-changing, the ever-in-motion and changed and radiating, and I loved what Laurie said, transformation through pleasure. This is absolutely amazing.
Alan Steinfeld
Good, so maybe, maybe we can like transcend all the religions and all the names and just get back to basic human understanding without having to label it Kabbalah or Tantra or even they
Ohad Ezrahi
What’s wrong, what’s wrong with giving names. What the
Alan Steinfeld
Because it, it seems like it divides it. I mean, for, if for so long we’re talking about the same thing, why, why give it a label? Why not just make it what it is. True really people fully human.
Ohad Ezrahi
Would you want all cultures to be one culture with no differences? You wouldn’t go to, you know, Indonesia and have different architecture. It’s just different languages.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, but the differences can also get in the way. What were you saying, Laurie?
Laurie Handlers
No, I don’t. I actually, I feel okay about what you’re saying. I think, I know for myself that when I found Tantra, I felt, my first tantric experience in a workshop, I felt like I could connect to myself as a primordial being. I went right back to being a cell, a drop of water in the ocean and a cell. And that was amazing, and that was the name of his tantra, but since I’ve been teaching tantra, or and, since I’ve been teaching tantra I can say that tantra is so hyped in the press and it’s so misunderstood that I feel like it’s always an uphill struggle to get people to understand that it isn’t kinky sex.
Alan Steinfeld
Tantra is not kinky sex, is that what you said? Yeah, it’s not. Okay, what, what, okay.
Laurie Handlers
So I’m saying that because you’re asking, should we have names of things? Aren’t they dividing? Yes, the name of Tantra divides people because it swerves them off sometimes to the, into a strange definition which has nothing whatsoever to do with what it is. Right. So, so I can, I can agree with that and yet I like cultural differences and I like, you know, different experiences and stuff and I really, and what the other the different phases of the one God.
Alan Steinfeld
I agree with some of that too. It’s just that cultures can also divide when they.. You know I’m not saying either one of you are doing that but its like seems like we need to go beyond that and not have one world culture but just acknowledge the common humanity throughout
Ohad Ezrahi
Of course, of course. Religions should be the you know not the problem but to just beautiful beautiful variety of you know the different faces of the one god. Alan, I need to continue with my evening.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. Thank you so much. I’ll keep talking to Laurie but just give us your website, your email and how to get in touch with you and how long you’re going to be here.
Ohad Ezrahi
Yeah I’m from Israel. We didn’t say that and my website, our website, my wife and mine, is Kabalove.org which is K-A-B–A-L-O-V-E.NET. There is a Hebrew and an English website and now we’re in New York and we’re going to be teaching this coming Tuesday, centerpoint yoga at 8 o’clock in the evening. Details are in the website and after late we are going to teach
Alan Steinfeld
Thank you so much for being a guest. Hopefully maybe some upcoming shows we’ll have you back and we’ll go into greater details.
Ohad Ezrahi
Thank you very much, Alan, and thank you, Laurie, and I hope we
Alan Steinfeld
Great talking to you. Say hello to Dawn as well, your wife. Thank you very much. Okay, Laurie? Yes? Laurie?
Laurie Handlers
Yes? I’m here.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, hi. We just have a few minutes. Why do you, do you want to just give an overview a little bit of, of where you’re coming from and, and talk a little bit about the new book and, and some upcoming workshops?
Laurie Handlers
Yeah, I would love to. I, well let me just say this. I’ve been prac-, I’ll just stay to people that I’ve been practicing Tantra now since 11, 12 years. And I, when I mean practicing, I do practices. I do breathing practices, I do, various body practices, and I also practice moving in the unknown, Latihan. And since that time, I
Alan Steinfeld
But does it also have to do with sexuality? Is sexuality also involved or not?
Laurie Handlers
Well, you know, I’m going to say something to you, Alan, and it’s been both for me. I’ve been, when I first was, studying Tantra, I was not in any kind of relationship, and I was not open to being sexual with anybody at the time. I really just needed to find my own center. And then for five and a half years, while I was practicing Tantra and beginning to teach, I was in a relationship. And so there was a sexuality aspect of it. And then, when that relationship is over
Alan Steinfeld
Is the core of Tantra sexual or not sexual? Or maybe there’s Red Tantra and White Tantra, as they’re calling it?
Laurie Handlers
Yeah, yeah. There’s White Tantra, which is more a self-practice, and there’s Red Tantra, which is more a sexual practice. But Red Tantra can be with a partner or with yourself.
Alan Steinfeld
But isn’t Tantra getting to the base, the core energy that is the life force, that is the creative energy, the feminine, basically?
Laurie Handlers
Yes, yes. And you don’t need to have sex with anyone to get in touch with that. You can just, that’s just right there. It’s a birthright, it’s a given, it’s right in each person’s body. You know, I just did a, I just did a book signing on Saturday over here. I’m on Fire Island, and I just did a book signing and there was all women at it. And they were a little bit goosy, you know, like I said, do you want to have a tantric experience? And they were like, oh my god, our husbands aren’t here. I said, so what? You know, we’re not going to have sex. We’re going to, we’re just going to juice up our bodies.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. Maybe you can do another show with me at some point and we can go through some of those exercises on the phone. Do this breathing, breathing. opening your.
Laurie Handlers
But, you know, getting back to what you’re saying, you know, I don’t care about all that red, white, all those things. I basically care that people are empowered to know who they truly are. Like they know their vital life force, they know their energy, they come to know it and trust it, they come to know and trust their inner guidance and they absolutely open themselves up to receive that which the universe offers and tantra is a way to do that and sometimes it comes in the form of a partner and it’s fabulous, wonderful, mind-blowing sex and sometimes it’s not that, sometimes it’s money flowing in. Sometimes it’s just going, oh my God, can it get any better than this? Like everything comes in. You know, and it really is about surrendering everything to God or whatever that source is that you have faith in. Right. And, and knowing that it’s, that all of it, all of life is a gift.
Alan Steinfeld
Uh-huh. So really, all, every way you’re living is the gift of Tantra. I mean, the tapping into the flow, as, as my friend Paulo Lo says, is tapping into that Tantric force, right?
Laurie Handlers
Yes, yes, yes. And taking down the walls of resistance. Like, just noticing, oh my God, I’m resisting. Okay, let go. Letting go of resistance, letting go of opposition, even, you know, I teach boundaries in my classes, Alan. And even getting to a point where boundaries aren’t necessary. But that, you know, that comes after knowing what boundaries are.
Alan Steinfeld
You have to know what boundaries are in order to transcend them. But most people don’t even have clear boundaries. So you teach them clear boundaries before they exactly right.
Laurie Handlers
Once I am able to say no, then I, then people can trust that when I say yes, I mean yes. And then eventually I can just say yes.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I think that’s something maybe some women in particular could benefit from. You know, it’s just to be clear on a clear note. So the male-female, women-men relationship is very unclear in those underlying basic understandings. When a woman says no, when she says yes, when a man says yes, you know, it gets very confusing, doesn’t it?
Laurie Handlers
It does. It really does. But I think,
Alan Steinfeld
How do you get that clear? How do you, how do you mean, we’re almost out of time, actually, we’re sort of out of time, but just if you could just.
Laurie Handlers
Okay. I can’t, yeah, and I can’t answer that in one sentence, except to just say to you that I have in my courses, I have three levels of courses, and in my second course, which you have to take my first course to take, I have a bliss course, an ecstasy course, and an initiation course. In my ecstasy course, we get boundaries. And like a playful thing. Like everyone gets boundaries like playing and they actually get them. And they’re in, and then once they’re in that shifts everything. Then they know who they are, like really as a safe being, and then they can really play and have some fun about it instead of being in survival about it.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, thank you Laurie. Can you just give your website and how people can contact you and name of your new book?
Laurie Handlers
Yeah, I have a lot of websites. I’ll give my main one. butterflyworkshops.com And from butterflyworkshops.com you can find all my others. My book has a website, sexandhappiness.com, and so on and so forth. I have a lot of a lot of things going on. But I would love to talk to you.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, we’ll do a whole show maybe next week or in the following weeks, okay?
Laurie Handlers
Yeah. Okay, thanks.
Alan Steinfeld
Thanks, Laurie. I’ll maybe see you around.