New Realities recorded on July 9, 2013
Summary
Alan Steinfeld interviews Travis Walton about his famous 1975 UFO abduction experience, which inspired the movie “Fire in the Sky.” Walton clarifies misconceptions about the event, noting that the extraterrestrials likely saved his life after he was accidentally struck by an energy discharge from their craft. He describes the craft’s interior and the two types of beings he encountered. The discussion also touches upon public perception, government secrecy, the role of media in shaping beliefs, and humanity’s readiness for open extraterrestrial contact. Walton mentions his ongoing efforts to investigate the physical evidence left at the site and his upcoming appearance at the “Contact in the Desert” conference.
Transcript
Alan Steinfeld
Welcome to New Realities. I’m Alan Steinfeld. This program is about a changing model of who we are as human beings, and I think a big part of that is interaction with other beings, otherworldly beings, and within the short span of 50 or 60 years there’s been a whole history of people who’ve had direct interactions with these beings, and tonight’s guest is probably one of the more well-known among those people. His name is Travis Walton. His story inspired Fire in the Sky, and welcome Travis to the program.
Travis Walton
Good to be with you, Alan.
Alan Steinfeld
I’m sort of surprised. Wasn’t there a time where you weren’t being so public with your story and now you seem to be out more? What’s gone on with you in the last few years in your relationship to this event?
Travis Walton
It’s been off and on for me over the years. When it very first happened, I tried to not do interviews, but I found that if I turned an interview down it didn’t make the story go away. It just made it more negative than it would be if I had my two cents worth in there. So I was kind of stuck with it. But nevertheless, there’s still been periods of time where I just kind of bowed out and didn’t do interviews or accept invitations to speak or anything.
Alan Steinfeld
So it was almost 40 years, you disappeared for five days aboard a craft in 1975, and it’s all laid out in this movie which I think you had some problems with. Can you talk a little bit about what you thought was the inconsistencies and how they presented your story?
Travis Walton
There’s a certain amount of fictionalization that occurs in turning any real-life story into a movie. There’s kind of a structure that audiences really, they don’t accept anything less. But there’s always other kinds of departures from reality that creep into it that I think are really unnecessary to go that far. And in my case, probably the ones I’d object to the most would be that which happened aboard the craft.
Alan Steinfeld
I see. Can you tell us what did happen aboard the craft?
Travis Walton
In the movie, they portray it as being very cluttered and organic, when in reality it was very sterile and mechanical looking inside. They even changed the appearance of the beings themselves with the rationale that, hey, we’ve got beer commercials with these types of beings in there, and so we want to show the audience something they haven’t seen before. Never mind that that’s not the way they looked.
Alan Steinfeld
How would you describe how they looked from your personal experience?
Travis Walton
They were very small beings. That didn’t reduce my fear of the circumstances I was in. But they’re about four feet tall, large heads, hairless, very large eyes. But a humanoid, to me, means two arms, two legs, a head on top with two eyes. That’s what humanoid means. A lot of people confuse that to mean that humanoid means human-looking or resembling humans, but that’s not what the word means.
Alan Steinfeld
It’s pretty amazing though that this happened almost 40 years ago and it’s still a big part of your life. How do you feel about that?
Travis Walton
It’s really kind of strange. It’s been a dawning, sort of a gradual growing awareness with me that along with the burden of having had this happen to me is a certain responsibility to try to make something good come of it. Because running away from it ain’t gonna work. I’m stuck with it. It’s gonna be there. So it’s kind of odd how it’s grown over the years. The weekend before last I did an interview for Russian television. That was a first. And there’s a tour group coming from China. And I’m getting emails from farther corners of the world now than ever before. And it’s like it took on a life of its own.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I think it’s becoming more acceptable. I also want to say that Travis will be at the Joshua Tree Retreat Center on August 9th through the 11th for Contact in the Desert Conference, where many people who are, I would say scholars, and really investigate the validity of this phenomena will be there, people like Richard Dolan, who I also saw in Washington DC appear in front of former members of Congress. I mean, I guess you can feel like you’re not alone anymore in this phenomena?
Travis Walton
Oh yeah, things have changed dramatically over the years. Back when this happened, there wasn’t any support groups at all. There were a few UFO organizations, but nothing like there is today. And back when this happened, they didn’t really know for certain of a single planet outside of this solar system. Astronomers had theories, but it wasn’t until Hubble and Kepler that they’ve actually identified which stars have planets and which ones might be earthlike. And the routine that space travel, the shuttle and all that, gained over the years has sort of changed the consciousness of the people on this world.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, and I think we eventually, who knows, maybe will openly meet these beings that you met. Do you think that’s possible?
Travis Walton
Yeah, I think it is. And when they talk about disclosure and some kind of openness about this, I don’t think it’s going to happen by virtue of popular demand or pressure. Although all those efforts are something I applaud. It’s part of it, I think, is that we’re not ready. And that to have that happen would be extremely disruptive. I think these entities are aware of that. And that’s their motivation for being so clandestine in their activities here. And it’s probably at least part of the motivation of the government in keeping what they know under wraps.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, that’s actually the big part of the thing I want to talk to you about, the thing that I read in your book and other places you’ve said it. You didn’t feel threatened by these beings physically, but there was something about being in their presence which was so traumatic. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Travis Walton
When they came around the table and I was screaming and making threatening motions at them, they stopped. But they stared into me with this disturbing, invasive sort of feeling that I didn’t understand for a long time. But more recently I’ve begun to think that perhaps if they were trying to assert some kind of control over me, it wasn’t working at that point. But the feeling that it gave me when they were trying it was what bothered me so much about them. And why the stare that they were giving me was the substance of my nightmares after I was returned.
Alan Steinfeld
Was it the substance of your nightmares because you felt like your mind was being invaded with something like that?
Travis Walton
Yeah, you know after I was returned I was given a brainwave scan, and I was put in under an assumed name, and the technician didn’t know anything except to look for signs of injury. And he noted in his report an odd brainwave pattern. And I’m thinking if that was an after effect of having been hit by the energy of that beam, that that may have disrupted the neural circuits in a way that prevented them from controlling me. But nevertheless, just the attempt felt so invasive. I don’t know how else to describe it.
Alan Steinfeld
You know that beam that hit you sounds a lot like the beam that hit Jim Penniston at the Bentwaters case. Have you looked into that case at all?
Travis Walton
I’ve heard a little bit about it, but I really don’t look into other cases. But one of the guys on the crew, Dwayne Smith, became a journeyman electrician after he left that job we were on then. And he said that to him it sounded like the high voltage he has worked around. Whatever the energy was, it was extremely powerful.
Alan Steinfeld
So you went towards the craft and you were zapped?
Travis Walton
Yeah, and rather than it being a beam that was fired, I’m now thinking most likely it was just the fact that when I straightened up to run away, I brought my upper body closest to it, and some kind of discharge, like a static spark, you know, on a giant scale, jumped through me to the ground. And then they were forced to take me aboard to try to revive me.
Alan Steinfeld
They could have left you there, though, right?
Travis Walton
Yeah, but the crew didn’t know CPR, and the hospital was an hour away. So I’d have been dead had they not taken me aboard.
Alan Steinfeld
So you’re saying the aliens really saved your life in that way.
Travis Walton
Yeah, it took a long time to come to that realization. But the fact that I was returned to a place where I could get help again says something about their concern for my survival.
Alan Steinfeld
I get that. Now, when you were on board, and you probably say this a lot, how conscious were you? Because a lot of people talk about abductions in a sort of dream-like awareness. I wasn’t conscious, I wasn’t awake. Were you pretty…?
Travis Walton
Well, yeah. The normal situation is they induce some kind of a trance-like state. But in my case, if my brain was kind of scrambled by this energy, it circumvented that process, and so I was in a very keenly aware state, and fueled by fear and adrenaline. There was nothing trance-like about it.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s what makes your case so unique and so different than probably the thousands of others that are out there, is that most people are not as lucid and clear in these states. Was the fear because all of a sudden you were in a totally new environment and you had no idea what was happening?
Travis Walton
Well, that could be some of it. But when I gained consciousness, I immediately felt the need for air. I felt like I was suffocating. And nothing generates panic more than the feeling of suffocation. You combine that with pain and this claustrophobic, dimly lit little room I was in, all that, you know, with feeling trapped and having these beings so close to me, it just combined to cause me to lose it.
Alan Steinfeld
Wait, so when you were feeling like you were suffocating, did they give you oxygen then?
Travis Walton
No, I was lashing out and fighting their approach to me. So they were unable to give me any kind of support in that way. And whether my struggling to breathe was caused by some lingering injury from being hit by the beam or whether the atmosphere in there was not correct, the feeling of suffocation causes panic in a way that you just can’t reason away.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, I know. So you have that panic. But then eventually, how did you relax into or you weren’t panicked for five days, right?
Travis Walton
No, they rendered me unconscious in a short period of time. And whatever happened there, I’m not able to get at after all this time.
Alan Steinfeld
Are there still pieces though that come to you even 40 years later?
Travis Walton
Little fragments.
Alan Steinfeld
But you don’t remember all five days on board the ship then. How much of it do you remember?
Travis Walton
I’ve estimated that period of time to be around an hour. It’s really hard to estimate time when you’re hysterical, but it was just a small part of the time, and that’s the reason when I was returned, I thought it was still the same night rather than five days and six hours later.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, so you don’t know if they, they must have fed you or something.
Travis Walton
Yeah, they must have, because there wasn’t signs of starvation, although there was some mild dehydration.
Alan Steinfeld
I see. So they returned you. When did the incident happen? In the afternoon?
Travis Walton
The evening of November 5th, and then five days and six hours later, around midnight.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. We don’t have to go into the whole story about how your crew was suspected of having murdered you and all that. I’m more interested in the actual events on board the ship and the interactions with these beings. Do you feel like you were given some special information because of your interactions somehow?
Travis Walton
Well, if they did, I don’t have it yet.
Alan Steinfeld
But you do have something, because you are coming out and saying this is real and we got to wake up to this.
Travis Walton
Yeah, I think it’s important for people to increase their awareness of this situation. But the fact that it was less of an abduction and more of an ambulance call is an important point, because I think there’s quite a bit too much fear built up around this. I think that whole belief could lead to an improper reaction should more open contact occur.
Alan Steinfeld
But there are abduction cases, I’m sure, but the fear, I think, is just because it’s so bizarre. So how would you though help people get used to the idea, or at least not have that fear? What would you say to people?
Travis Walton
Well, you would think that with their technology, that if they really wanted to remain completely hidden from our perception that they’re here, that could be accomplished. I think the reason it’s just kind of marginal and just kind of like they’re just feeding a little bit to sort of get people used to the idea in a way that’s going to be the least disruptive, the least shocking to society.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, that’s what I think. They come and they go and people say, did you see that? And they say no. And it’s like the government is doing sort of the same thing. They release information and then they deny it.
Travis Walton
Yeah. And the net effect is, eventually people will become more acclimated to the idea. But in some regards, you know, there’s a lot of the people on this planet that are really living in basically Stone Age conditions, you know. I mean, there’s a huge percentage of the population that get their water from the river or the lake and build fires to cook their meals every day and don’t have central heating and cooling and that sort of thing.
Alan Steinfeld
Are you saying that whether they’re here or not wouldn’t matter to those people, or could it?
Travis Walton
Well, what I mean is that, we pride ourselves on the fact that we went to the moon. Well, we didn’t go to the moon. A segment of our population had the technological ability to achieve that. And there’s a lot of people that Jay Leno interviews on the street who don’t have a clue.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. But I guess, if they have this incredible technology, and obviously they do, because you’re one of the few people who can verify that they’ve been on there, why don’t they give us this technology so they don’t have to have these people? I have my own ideas why they don’t, but why do you think they don’t?
Travis Walton
Well, where do I begin as far as disruption is concerned? I really think it might be kind of quaint or whatever to think of a non-interference directive like they have in science fiction, that there’s basically a rule that you don’t come and disrupt the development of less developed societies because it is harmful. And to just plop some advanced technology down in the midst of us would really create havoc. It’s not going to help. And we have to improve our understanding and our maturity as a species in a variety of ways before we’re ready for the technology. The technology is something that can just be misused if you’re not up to speed in the other areas that we really need to evolve in.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, yeah, and are these new ideas for you? I know you’ve all changed over the course…
Travis Walton
Well, I’ve had 38 years to try to think of why, what, where and what, so I can’t say that I’ve gone too far with it, but I have, I’m a long ways from where I was back when it first happened.
Alan Steinfeld
I mean, fundamentally, you’ve changed because of this in ways you couldn’t have imagined.
Travis Walton
Yeah. It’s beyond measure. I know that in no way am I who I would have been had this never happened.
Alan Steinfeld
So are you happy it happened then?
Travis Walton
No. No, there’s still most of me that just says I wish I’d have stayed in the truck and this had never happened.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, if you’d stayed in the truck like the other guys, you wouldn’t have been blasted and you wouldn’t have…
Travis Walton
Yeah, wouldn’t have, just never would have happened.
Alan Steinfeld
But you are a spokesperson. I mean, you’ve become a spokesperson for this other level of reality. And maybe it was supposed to, I don’t know if supposed to, but maybe this was a bigger calling for you.
Travis Walton
Well, I hope to figure out what my role is supposed to be here, but I’m gonna do my best to try to make something good come of it. And to just sort of raise the bar in terms of understanding and people’s approach to it and how to evaluate these kinds of reports.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I think you’ve made a huge difference just because of all the incidences around the case. I mean, it was confirmed that you were missing for five days, they couldn’t find you anywhere. And I think just that gives a validity in human terms that there’s something real that’s happening here.
Travis Walton
Yeah, well, here we are all these years later, and all of the crew stands by what happened. And at the time when they were accused of murdering me and they passed the police polygraph test, the president of the Polygraph Association said that the odds were a million to one of there being any mistake with those tests. But now there’s 16 passed tests. Five of them are mine. And so, who knows what the odds would be now. But there’s a whole lot more to it, you know, evidence found at the site and that kind of thing that each and every theory the naysayers put forth has just been methodically debunked.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, I didn’t know. What kind of stuff was found at the site that you were blasted at?
Travis Walton
Well, they found some anomalous magnetic readings. They found traces of radiation. And the trees nearest to where the craft came down grew at an accelerated rate for years and years after it happened.
Alan Steinfeld
And this was near Snowflake or where was this exactly?
Travis Walton
Well, it was up on the rim near Heber, Arizona, which is 30 miles from Snowflake.
Alan Steinfeld
Do you ever go back to that place and just kind of…
Travis Walton
As little as possible, but I have been back there. I need to have an expedition here this summer in which some of the follow-up research needs to be done.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, so you’re gonna go back there this summer, huh?
Travis Walton
Yeah, you know, I can get a crew and some researchers to just look into some of those effects that I was describing to you, see if they’re still there and maybe some tests that haven’t been done yet.
Alan Steinfeld
There’s so many people that I meet and it’s so frustrating for me to have people think that UFOs, aliens, they’re not real, they’re made up. I mean, how do we convince these people that this stuff is real?
Travis Walton
Well, I think there’s probably no simple way to just overcome all of their objections, because a lot of it has to do with what they prefer to believe. But one by one, you just have to point out the problems with their approach to things. Some of them have religious objections, some of them have heard rumors. And see, a lot of the naysayers, the debunkers have thrown out a lot of theories that even though they were disproven almost immediately, they’ve survived all this time. The skeptics latch onto those things and put them on the internet to this day. Like for instance, that I passed a polygraph test because I just believe it happened, it was really just a drug hallucination. But the fact that I had blood and urine samples put through the county medical examiner’s drug screen which proved there was no drugs of any kind in my body, that’s been known all these years and yet the skeptics grab onto that as one of their propaganda pieces.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, are they skeptical because it’s just so hard to believe or are they fearful that their reality, and this is what I think, is not what we say it is?
Travis Walton
Yeah, I agree with you that it’s really based in fear.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah. Because if we think that the reality we’ve been conditioned to believe isn’t what we say it is, then sort of our whole ego identification falls apart in some sense, right?
Travis Walton
Yeah, and once they’ve said, oh, this can’t be, then they kind of get entrenched and feel defensive and they do everything they can to shore up that previous conclusion. It then becomes don’t confuse me with the facts, they want to shut out any kind of an opposing view. And also I think it’s a kind of an error in the reasoning pattern they’re using. They tend to equate the unproven as disproven. In other words, they’re not gonna believe anything is true unless it’s proved. And if it’s not proved, then it’s the equivalent of disproven for them.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, you know there’s hundreds of thousands of pictures and eyewitness accounts and photographs. The ones when I’ve been looking at the skeptics’ blogs and they say they want physical proof. So is that the only way? Even then I bet they wouldn’t acknowledge.
Travis Walton
No, they wouldn’t. But you know, there’s many, many things in our day-to-day lives that we take for granted that we don’t really have physical proof of, physical evidence of. We just go on as if it’s true because that’s the only thing that makes sense.
Alan Steinfeld
Like what?
Travis Walton
Simple things, like if I go over to that door, I open it before I go through it. I don’t need proof that if I just try to walk through that doorway I’m not gonna make it unless I open the door first. But an arch skeptic approaches that kind of thinking in that everything has to be proven. You know, the existence of air, gravity and magnetism, things that you can’t see are nevertheless there.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. And you know, just meeting you, I mean, there’s people and they’re all over the place they’re saying that these things don’t exist. Just by meeting you and hearing your story and the fact that you are telling the truth. How can people then still deny what’s true?
Travis Walton
I don’t know, you know, if you truly want to know what is, you don’t have strong feelings about what you want it to be. You have to take the truth for what it is, whatever it turns out to be. And to be totally willing to accept the truth whatever it is, you have to examine the facts impartially rather than picking and choosing the things that support the view you held before.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, you know what I think? If and when these beings become part of our world, there’s something about them, and maybe you can tell me, that changes who we are, like in their presence. Did you feel, of course you were traumatized, but do you feel like different in a sense?
Travis Walton
Oh yeah, it just changed the perspective in terms of being earth-centric and being preoccupied with the day-to-day things, and it really did change my perspective in terms of the wider existence. It’s just a fact. Just in the last year NASA came out and said it’s a virtual certainty that there are more planets in the Milky Way than there are stars. We knew there were billions of stars, but now with the telescopes and the statistical sampling that they’ve done so far, they can say that there’s more planets than there are stars. And that’s a huge number of worlds other than our own. And you just can’t assume that those things are just empty out there. That’s absurd thinking.
Alan Steinfeld
And life, I think, the proliferation of life is a natural phenomenon in the universe. Look at it everywhere.
Travis Walton
Yeah, and you know, the skeptics are very fond of saying, well, we don’t know of anything with our understanding of physics of a practical way for them to get here from there or for us to get from here to there. But Michio Kaku made the point on television here a while back that people keep envisioning these other worlds to be a hundred or a thousand years ahead of us. But he said, based on the age of these systems, they can be hundreds of thousands or millions of years ahead of us. So what’s technologically, it’s just so silly for people to make pronouncements about what’s possible. I mean, learned scientists just 100 years ago were saying man could never travel faster than 60 miles an hour because all the air would be sucked away and you’d be suffocated. Just silly things that some of the best thinkers of the day believed at the time.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, they talked about it was impossible to have heavier-than-air machines when the Wright brothers flew. I mean, and just look at the cell phone. There’s more components in that than was in a whole room full of hardware in the 1940s. So technology isn’t the obstacle. I think it’s more the consciousness, how we deal with these beings when we’re no longer, like you said, earth-centric. And that’s the change we need to come to.
Travis Walton
Yeah, for sure. I agree.
Alan Steinfeld
And so, I just want to know when you were interacting, you said they penetrated your mind with their thoughts. Is that, if we were to interact with these beings as if, okay, they arrive, would that be the trauma for people that they are like, not just strange looking, but they are, they have a different way of thinking? Is that what I’m trying to say?
Travis Walton
Well, you know, it might be that that was an extreme measure that they needed to initiate because I was a bull in a china shop and was a threat to myself and to them. It might be that just good etiquette would make it to where they didn’t do those kinds of invasive things if we had a more open sort of interaction with them.
Alan Steinfeld
But what do you think these beings are like? I mean, are they, because you were firsthand there. They don’t make small talk. I mean, what do they do with themselves if they’re, or is it like impossible to know?
Travis Walton
Well, we don’t know at this point, but I think a lot of that had to do with they were trying to keep me from knowing as little as possible about them, you know. The reason they wouldn’t speak, the reason they wouldn’t respond to my questions, all that, you know, the lack of any written signs or, you know, I think they might have been sort of hiding that.
Alan Steinfeld
Like what do you think they would be hiding if they were, what could you imagine?
Travis Walton
Well, I can imagine at least that if they were speaking English, there might be an accent or lack of accent or who knows. It would just be that much more to think about. If you were just trying to save someone from themselves so to speak, with the minimal amount of intrusion, silence would naturally be one of the first steps.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. But do you think, have you ever been hypnotized to all those missing hours and days, do you think there’s more in your subconscious that you’re not aware of that you might know?
Travis Walton
Yeah, but I’ve been afraid to try to get at that because there was a warning during the first hypnosis session about trying to push past that. Now, whether that was a bluff or not, I’m not going to test.
Alan Steinfeld
But what was that warning? How did that come up?
Travis Walton
I would die if they tried to get to the memories other than what I was recalling when I was returned.So there’s a possibility that Dr. Harder shied away from pushing further with that because if I were to be regressed back to a period of time in which I was in cardiac arrest, you might actually cause that cardiac arrest to reoccur.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh.
Travis Walton
Like if the energy of that beam just stopped my heart or something, you don’t want to pass through that time period hypnotically.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, so did that actually come up as a warning in your hypnosis?
Travis Walton
No, I’m speculating there, but the warning was specific, but nothing about cardiac arrest.
Alan Steinfeld
But what was the warning? So you were hypnotized…
Travis Walton
I already said. I would die if they tried to go past that block.
Alan Steinfeld
You said that. It came out of you. Is that what…
Travis Walton
Yeah, during the hypnosis.
Alan Steinfeld
I see. So you are saying that may just be an implant from them to prevent you from going and finding out more truth about it, right?
Travis Walton
Yeah.
Alan Steinfeld
But you don’t want to risk that. I understand, you know. What if they regressed you after they revived you, because you’re saying that just happened and they regressed to like the last day on board or something? I mean, are there any other points within those five days and two days, would that be something you were willing to try or probably not?
Travis Walton
No, I’m not. That’s playing with fire. It’s just, you know, little bits of it come back now and then, and I guess if it’s meant to be I don’t know. I may never know.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, do you think they’re here for, what reason do you think they are here, or were they there in Arizona at that time?
Travis Walton
Well, you know, people keep referring to the alien agenda. Like as if there’s just one group of aliens and they have one set purpose. But I don’t think that’s the case. I think that even the descriptions that are being lumped into various types, you know, the reptilians, the Nordics, the greys, are really big broad categories that include probably in my view, species that don’t even come from the same planet at all, that they just happen to look similar so they get lumped together.
Alan Steinfeld
But what you saw, would you call it a gray, the beings that interacted with you?
Travis Walton
No, that term didn’t exist in 1975. So, but it generally fits the description of large eyes and bald head and small stature compared to ours. But the variations and descriptions that you get there might be because they just happen to come from planets, different planets, and happen to look a lot alike.
Alan Steinfeld
Or maybe we’re all related in some humanoid sort of way.
Travis Walton
Yeah. That’s a possibility too.
Alan Steinfeld
But how many did you see when you were on board?
Travis Walton
Two different types.
Alan Steinfeld
Two different types. And what was the difference between the two?
Travis Walton
Well, one type looked like what people keep calling grays. But the others looked like humans.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, but did they look exactly human, or was there something odd about them?
Travis Walton
A little bit, but they’d pass in a crowd.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, oh I didn’t realize that. And what were they wearing? Were they wearing like…
Travis Walton
The humans or the other ones?
Alan Steinfeld
The little grays, what were they wearing?
Travis Walton
They were just wearing a kind of a coverall.
Alan Steinfeld
Like a one piece jumpsuit type thing?
Travis Walton
Yeah.
Alan Steinfeld
And the humans, were they dressed differently?
Travis Walton
Yeah, they were dressed differently. They were wearing a more tightly fitting coverall. That’s what made me think at first that they were like from the Air Force or something, you know, like some kind of a flight suit or something like that, or just a blue uniform, but no insignia, no flags or anything like that.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, so it’s a blue kind of one-piece sort of flight suit that the humans were wearing. And the other ones were wearing sort of a similar thing, like that too?
Travis Walton
Yeah, only it was orangish, brownish orange.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, it was brownish orange. And the humans were wearing a darker sort of suit, huh? Like sort of like a dark blue, navy blue, sky, light blue?
Travis Walton
Light blue.
Alan Steinfeld
Light blue. So what was the relationship between those, like, ET-looking ones and the humans? Do you know?
Travis Walton
Well, that’s a subject of speculation because, you know, it might have been that the little ones didn’t understand my physiology and needed help from someone that was more similar to me. It might be that there was a forceful intervention, the human types taking me back from the smaller ones. It might have been some sort of cooperative thing all along. Who knows? There’s a variety. Some people even think that maybe this human-looking type was just something they created on short notice to get control of me.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, I’ve heard that, they generate these like human-type looking things to make you, the person, feel comfortable. But were they, were they male or female?
Travis Walton
Well, they were mostly male, but there was one female.
Alan Steinfeld
Uh-huh.
Travis Walton
Oh, and you know, she actually had longer hair than they did, which seems kind of earth-like, but I don’t know, maybe that’s.
Alan Steinfeld
What color was her hair, would you say?
Travis Walton
It was light colored. It wasn’t real blond, it wasn’t platinum blond, but it was lighter.
Alan Steinfeld
And were they, were the men lighter too, with blue eyes or dark eyes or?
Travis Walton
Well, there was something odd about their eyes. That was just, that’s probably the distinguishing feature that I would pick out if I was to see them walking around on earth.
Alan Steinfeld
What was the odd thing about their eyes?
Travis Walton
I never could quite figure out what that was. It was just something I couldn’t quite put my finger on.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, you think those humans could be the hybrids of alien and human offspring?
Travis Walton
They didn’t bear any similarity to the other creatures.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, I see. Were they telepathic too, the way you say that the those little beings were speaking telepathically, or…
Travis Walton
I didn’t, I didn’t pick up anything like that.
Alan Steinfeld
So did you have any interaction with these human-looking beings?
Travis Walton
Well, they took me out of there and rendered me unconscious, but you know, during the period of time that I recalled, you know, I was just screaming questions and pretty hysterical, but they didn’t respond to my desperate begging for answers about what was happening to me and, you know.
Alan Steinfeld
It would be interesting to kind of get you back. I mean, of course I understand the hesitation, but it’d be interesting to know what else happened to you on board that ship. I mean, aren’t you curious in a way to know?
Travis Walton
Yeah, yeah, curious and fearful at the same time.
Alan Steinfeld
Right.
Travis Walton
If there was a way to find out and be completely safe, I would, of course, opt for that. But I don’t know whether I’d go public with it. You know, people say, oh, it’s so great that you came forward. I didn’t come forward. By the time I was returned, this was world news and I tried to avoid talking about it publicly. But it’s something that they came to me.
Alan Steinfeld
I think it’s great how your crew is really now standing behind you and, because they were freaked out too for a long time, weren’t they?
Travis Walton
Oh yeah, they definitely were. It had a profound effect on all of us.
Alan Steinfeld
Wow. It’s, you know, somehow it seems sort of destined maybe, if you want to call it that. I mean, how did this affect your religious beliefs at all, I’m just curious?
Travis Walton
Well, you know, I don’t think that, you know, a lot of people imagine it would just blow your religious thoughts away, but I see absolutely no contradiction between what happened and any religion, because I could get into that, but it…
Alan Steinfeld
get into it a little bit, because it’s still like the source, the creator, whatever you want to call it, that generates life, I guess, right?
Travis Walton
Yeah. I’ve had people come to me from various religions, Muslim, Jewish, you know, various Christian religions, and they’ll either say, this contradicts my religion, I can’t believe it, or this fits right in with this, this and this that I believe. And they’re from the same religion, and so it’s just a matter of personal interpretation. I’ve kind of, I’ve said before that when you get right down to it, there’s seven billion different religions here on earth. You know, we kind of group ourselves into denominations, but everyone basically has their own religion and they interpret things the way they want to in a very personal way.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. Exactly. Two Christians, two Roman Catholics will not believe the same thing even though they call themselves the same religion, so yeah. But I just think the appearance of these beings worldwide does shake things up in a way that, it’s what Budd Hopkins used to say, it is the biggest event in history. It’s the realization that we’re not alone. It’s in the way that Copernicus said, the earth isn’t the center of the universe. It starts to, I think it has a positive effect on people.
Travis Walton
Yeah, and that was earth-shattering concept back then, to the point where Galileo was placed under house arrest and threatened with death for even suggesting that the earth wasn’t the center of the universe. But, you know, times change and the same church that said that has come out here in the last few years and said there’s absolutely nothing wrong with believing that there are other life out there.
Alan Steinfeld
But then the people that really make the policy, the government, I mean, there was something Obama said, no, there’s no proof that there’s been, we’ve been visited by other beings. I mean, there’s another type of orthodox religion in place, I mean the scientific world that…
Travis Walton
Well you know that phrase there is no proof, sometimes there is proof and they’re just denying it, and other times the fact that there’s no proof is irrelevant to the idea that it’s probably pretty likely to be true, it just hasn’t been proven yet. Like I said, lack of proof is not disproof. The unproven is not disproven.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s right. That’s a really key… And there’s and also someone like you who has had the experience as you know, you don’t need, I mean,
Travis Walton
yeah, I know personally. And that kind of makes me feel set apart in a way many times. But you know the other side of the coin of that belief thing with the skeptic is the gullible, the person that believes everything that’s not absolutely disproven. And that’s not a valid way of thinking either. There are many things in the vast continuum between disproven and proven that we have to just assign a certain degree of weight to. You know, there’s a certain amount of evidence that points in that direction and you know we just have to go forward without absolute proof. Even our court system fails to recognize that someone who is found not guilty has not been proven innocent. That’s different.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. Right. No, I think that’s a really good point. You know what I think the scariest thing about meeting these beings is realizing that we’re not the smartest creatures in the universe. Don’t you think there’s a little bit of that out there?
Travis Walton
Oh yeah, that comes with that whole earth-centric sort of point of view. You know, we’re it, we’re it, we’re just all there is. You know, the idea that something might be above us is threatening, especially to those in leadership positions who like to see themselves as the elite of creation.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. It’s threatening, but it’s also very sobering. I think in a bigger picture, you know, kind of grounds us. It’s like, okay, well, we’re just part of the food chain, and we sort of need to take responsibility then for our planet and ourselves and our interactions. I mean, it’s a game changer. That’s what I’m saying.
Travis Walton
But you know, each of us is born rather simple. I mean, when we’re kids, we don’t know too much about the world. And as we progress through our lives, we gain understanding and wisdom. And our whole younger years is immersed in the idea that there are people who know more than us who are running things and, you know, someday we might rise to that level. But at this point, we’re not. So it’s a continuum. And so it shouldn’t be so shocking that as a species there’s somebody that’s farther along than us, since we each of us begin our lives that way, looking at adults as, you know, those people who know more than us.
Alan Steinfeld
Actually, that’s a really good point. I’m glad you said that, because you’re right. It’s just sort of the natural order of things. But something happens with this scientific elite and the government, especially the US government, where they want to be on top of it all. They want to maintain control. And that’s what I think is the biggest threat.
Travis Walton
Yeah, that’s certainly a big part of it. But even if that didn’t exist, the fact that they have been denying it officially for so long has, they backed themselves into a corner. It’s very hard for them to come out and say, okay, we’ve been lying to you for years, but now we’re going to tell you the truth. You know, they would undermine their own credibility in a dramatic way that they’re just not about to do unless they’re forced to.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, they, I think they might be forced to, at some point, you know…
Travis Walton
Yeah, and you know, I don’t think it’s gonna be marches in the street or petitions. I think most likely it will be one of two things. A whistleblower who comes out and, you know, runs off with some documents or something, or more likely, just some big event that they can’t deny. You know, a crash that occurs in a populated or near populated area. That kind of a thing.
Alan Steinfeld
But they had that, did you see that video Richard Dolan did with that old guy who worked for the CIA who went to investigate Area 51 for Eisenhower and he comes back to Eisenhower, he talks to Eisenhower, Nixon and Hoover and says, yes, there are aliens and crash UFOs at Area 51. And he tells Eisenhower that, and he’s just come out on a video. And so there are whistle, did you see that video on him? You did. So anyway, there’s whistleblowers don’t seem to change anything because…
Travis Walton
Oh yeah, like I said, it has to be a whistleblower that takes some proof with him, because you know, they’re very good at covering up this kind of stuff. The government is very aware of a basic technique that they can fool most of the people most of the time, and that’s quite sufficient to their purposes.
Alan Steinfeld
I just want to ask you another question. Did you after you returned, I know you said you had nightmares. Did you feel like you were being communicated in some way by these beings after?
Travis Walton
No, I think that those nightmares were just post-traumatic stuff that I was just dreaming things that were waking me up.
Alan Steinfeld
So you never felt any more mental invasion from these beings after you returned.
Travis Walton
No.
Alan Steinfeld
I see. So that, so they kind of like disconn… Would you be interested in meeting them again or not really?
Travis Walton
Well, you know, that brainwave pattern that I was talking about that I speculated might be what gave me resistance to their mental invasion, I, one of the things I wanted to follow up on was to have another EEG and see if that effect was still there. You know?
Alan Steinfeld
And you haven’t had that at all?
Travis Walton
No.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, that should be pretty easy to arrange, actually.
Travis Walton
Yeah. So that’s something I’d like to get accomplished, see if that odd pattern is still there.
Alan Steinfeld
That would be interesting. So at this event coming up in August, you’re going to be speaking there and in the promotion for that, you said you had some new kind of material or ideas that you were going to talk about.
Travis Walton
Well, I think it’s, you know, piecing together things more than, you know, not some dramatic new revelation, but just a new understanding and kind of putting the puzzle together in a way that makes sense.
Alan Steinfeld
Like what, would you say? I mean…
Travis Walton
I’ve touched on some of those kinds of things now, you know, equating this to be more of an ambulance call than an abduction and, and then there’s a whole litany of material to do with government cover up and suppression and that sort of thing.
Alan Steinfeld
Would you be willing to testify in front of like Congress if you were asked to?
Travis Walton
Yeah, but I don’t think they’re interested in hearing from me.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I mean, you know Stephen Bassett put together this whole thing in April, but I think he would do it again even with contactees, people who’ve had some kind of personal experience with these beings. You didn’t see any writing on the craft, any letter type writing, did you?
Travis Walton
No, I didn’t see any writing.
Alan Steinfeld
So the inside was completely sort of sterile and sort of like a misty kind of light, huh? Is that what you said?
Travis Walton
Well, you know, there were metallic surfaces and, you know, just plain surfaces. If there were any kind of signs or insignia, they may have just removed them just for temporarily because of my presence.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, the other thing is, you must, obviously the craft must have been traveling because they you weren’t, the craft wasn’t there where they found you five days. Did you go, you often dist…
Travis Walton
Right. I was thinking that if I could open a door, I could jump out and I’d still be in the woods, but obviously that was not the case because, you know, it wasn’t still there. The crew came back and saw it leave and so they, you know, it was not there.
Alan Steinfeld
But did you have any sense of you were out in space or anything like that?
Travis Walton
It could have been, but I didn’t feel motion. It was just like being in a building or something, very motionless, and I didn’t hear the sounds of machinery from the inside like I did from the outside. It was making a terrific, powerful sound from the outside, but it was just completely silent on the inside.
Alan Steinfeld
Like what what did it sound like outside?
Travis Walton
It was a cyclic frequency kind of a thing across the whole range of human hearing. Some of it was very base, very low that they could feel in the truck and I could feel in my body more than here, and some of it was high-pitched off the range of human hearing on the other end.
Alan Steinfeld
Did it feel like it was kind of going through you, the sound?
Travis Walton
Yeah, you felt it as much as hearing it.
Alan Steinfeld
And you heard that before and then you got out of the truck and you ran towards it. Why did you do that?
Travis Walton
Well, you know, Alan and Steve said it looked to them like I was in a trance, but it didn’t feel that way to me. Now, if they were controlling me at that point, you know, they could make me think it was my idea, I suppose, but the entrancement was that I was just in awe of the power and, and…It was this thing was so shiny and so, you know, giving off this glow, this energy, it was just astonishing. That’s the way everyone, all of us felt. And so, you know, we were all in awe, to that extent.
Alan Steinfeld
So it was you felt like, and I believe you, you wanted to just get a little closer to this thing. That was what your feeling was.
Travis Walton
Yeah.
Alan Steinfeld
I probably would have done the same thing. I mean, it’s like, wow, there’s this amazing thing, let’s, let’s check it out, right?
Travis Walton
Yeah. Well, the closer I got, the scareder I got, and part of that was the closer I got, the more the crew was screaming and swearing at me to get back, you know.
Alan Steinfeld
And then you got how close were you before you were zapped?
Travis Walton
Well, there was this pile of logging, the tree trunks and stuff there that kept me from getting much closer. But I was looking up probably at about a 45 or more when it suddenly got louder and started to move.
Alan Steinfeld
You were 45 feet away, 40, about 40 feet away?
Travis Walton
No, that was 45 degrees. The angle I was looking at.
Alan Steinfeld
And how far were you from it, would you say?
Travis Walton
Well, it was, I was pretty dang close, you know. But so that when I went into a crouch and then decided to run back to the truck, when I stood up, that’s when my upper body was closest to it, the closest thing to it. And that’s what made the energy jump like a spark.
Alan Steinfeld
Were you what, like five feet from it, or 10 feet, or?
Travis Walton
No, it was more like 10 or 15 feet, you know.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, I see, so the something jumped off the craft. Was the craft hovering, or was it actually on the ground?
Travis Walton
It was hovering.
Alan Steinfeld
It was hovering, and it looked saucer shaped, that kind of…
Travis Walton
Yeah.
Alan Steinfeld
And it was metal, you’re saying?
Travis Walton
Yeah, metallic and glowing at the same time.
Alan Steinfeld
Were there windows that you could look in or no windows?
Travis Walton
There weren’t windows. There were just like panels or sections that glowed.
Alan Steinfeld
Uh-huh. Glowed with like what color light?
Travis Walton
A sort of a golden glow.
Alan Steinfeld
A golden… So it must have been quite spectacular to see it. I mean, really.
Travis Walton
Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was astonishing. That’s something that all of the crew talks about, you know, that it was just this amazingly powerful thing.
Alan Steinfeld
Wow, it’s strange. I wonder what they were doing in the middle of the woods. I mean, what, what do you think that craft was doing out there?
Travis Walton
Well, there’s all kinds of speculation, you know, some people have giving me maps of various geological and geothermal and kinds of things that were there. And the summer after this happened, there was a lady that was working in the lookout tower, the fire lookout tower nearby. And she said that this crew of federal workers came through and they were measuring magnetic readings. And they were using these instruments on the ground, which, you know, my understanding is normally this is done by airplane, they just fly over with this thing hanging below it and make those kind of measurements from the air, but I’m thinking that maybe they were there following up on the report that the ufologists had published, you know, about going to the site and finding these unusual magnetic readings where the craft came down.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, I bet they were. Huh. So when you go back there this summer, are you going to take instruments to do more magnetic readings?
Travis Walton
Yes. That’s the plan.
Alan Steinfeld
I see. That should be interesting.
Travis Walton
Well you know, when we went back with National Geographic, they were gonna follow up on the radiation readings, but their insistence on going when there was two feet of snow on the ground just completely blew that out of the water because water shields radiation. So there’s no way you could tell if there was radiation down below that snow.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, that’s that’s kind of stupid that they would do that, you know. Wonder why they did that, maybe they didn’t want to know really, right?
Travis Walton
Well, I think they didn’t want to know, but it wasn’t like they cared whether there was snow or not, it was just National Geographic has a tremendous reputation for doing nature and science documentaries and so I was really excited that this follow-up testing, you know, on a variety of fronts would achieve something. They flew a scientist in there that they never used, they took samples that were never tested and it was just basically a big joke. So National Geographic has no credibility on the subject of UFOs.
Alan Steinfeld
Wait, what was the theme? Was this particularly your case or was it about UFOs in general?
Travis Walton
Well, they had a series called Chasing UFOs and mine was one whole episode of it.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, so it sounds like they were just trying to debunk the whole thing, really, right?
Travis Walton
Well, not really, it was just a big who cares haha kind of a, you know, they just weren’t taking it serious, you know.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, I think that’s the problem with the media, is that, you know, because they kind of dictate the mindset of the public. If they don’t take it seriously, you can’t expect the general public to take it seriously.
Travis Walton
Well after I left they put on these cameras, these night vision cameras, but instead of them pointing out there at the things in the site, they were pointing at their own faces. So they could just be running around breathing hard and looking all panicked. And it was just silly. You know, what’s that noise? Oh, there’s a bear out there. No, there wasn’t, like I said, there was two feet of snow and bears are hibernating. But, you know, they try to just make a scary little, you know, thing at the tagline at the end of it that was just silly. And, you know, that was a regrettable experience, but…
Alan Steinfeld
And the movie, the movie was actually, I thought, a good convincing portrayal, even though they may have gotten some of the details wrong, but it did seem to…
Travis Walton
Well, there’s been dozens of productions over the years that movie included, but the most accurate one that was ever done was that 90-minute special that the Sci-Fi channel did on Paranormal Witness.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, you were the star of that one? Did they focus…
Travis Walton
Yeah, they did 90 minutes on just my case alone.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, okay.
Travis Walton
And, you know, they did reenactments mixed with straight interviews of everybody involved. Me, the rest of the crew, the sheriff and his deputy and the doctor who took care of me after I was returned and the state police lie detector expert. You know, they were very thorough and there was no like narration or voiceover. It was just straight interview, people telling it from their point of view. And so it was really the most accurate piece has been done.
Alan Steinfeld
Huh. Well that’s, have you been able to like also have a pretty normal life as well, you know.
Travis Walton
I really work at that, you know, I’ll go out, like this last weekend I was speaking in Roswell, the weekend before that I was doing an interview with Russian television. But when I come home I just try to, you know, block that out of my mind and live a normal life as much as possible. It’s probably why I turn down so many radio interviews is that I just have to get away from it at times, you know.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I’m happy to talk to you because, you know, you’re just a regular guy and you had an experience and you’re talking about it and I think it’s important to…
Travis Walton
Yeah, somewhere here something good should come of it, you know, I’m talking about in terms of benefit to humanity to, you know, the world at large.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I think, and what was new to hearing you in this conversation tonight was that I didn’t realize that they actually were trying to help you, you know, and that they’re actually kind of looking after you, these beings that took you in. And maybe they are trying to help the planet, you know, not destroy itself as well, you know.
Travis Walton
Yeah, if when the crew describes that beam hitting me, the violence and the power of that energy, once they got away a certain distance, Dwayne Smith says to Steve, it looked like he disintegrated. And Steve goes, no I saw him hit the ground in one piece. But that’s how devastating that energy was. So, the idea that I might have been killed is not a big stretch because that’s what they believed the minute that thing hit me, that they thought they had just seen somebody get killed.
Alan Steinfeld
So they took off after that, they didn’t…
Travis Walton
Yeah, they figured they were next.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, that’s why they took off. Oh.
Travis Walton
Yeah, so, when they saw it leave, they figured it was safe to come back, but still that took a lot of courage to come back at all.
Alan Steinfeld
So they came back to look for you and you were not there, then what did they think about that?
Travis Walton
Well, then they had to go get help. Some of them were against reporting it to the authorities until they had gotten their own search going, but they figured that, if I was never found, that it would look bad if they didn’t report it to the law enforcement. So when the sheriff and his men came, they could see plainly that something really devastating had happened. These guys were shaking and some of them were still crying, and but they immediately suspected that it was just a cover-up for a murder.
Alan Steinfeld
And what would they think the reason for murdering you, what would it be, why would they want to do that?
Travis Walton
Well, just fight, a bunch of guys. I mean, we did get in fights. Me and Alan and Alan and Mike. We’re loggers, a bunch of hardass guys. And so it was easy to think maybe there was a fight and maybe a chainsaw got involved and somebody wound up dying.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, I see. I see. That happens, that could happen, but yeah.
Travis Walton
So the sheriff looks at these guys, yeah that’s kind of a rough bunch.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, right. But when your crew went back to the site where you got knocked out and you weren’t there, did they think that the ship had taken you or that you disintegrated, or they didn’t know?
Travis Walton
They were wondering if maybe I came to and tried to find them. Maybe I wandered off in a daze. So that’s the reason they spent five days, the sheriff’s posse had over 50 men searching the area, airplanes, helicopters, tracking dogs.
Alan Steinfeld
It’s so incredible in a way, isn’t it? I mean…
Travis Walton
Well, even my oldest brother thought they might have killed me and he was out there looking through the brush piles that the crew had made thinking that my body was hidden in there.
Alan Steinfeld
So when you returned five days later, were they just overjoyed to see you, your crew and your family?
Travis Walton
Well, my family was certainly overjoyed. The crew, a lot of people assume that we were just like this group of buddies that hung out together, but we were just a bunch of people who happened to be working at the same place. You go home at night and you live your own life. So we weren’t a bunch of friends. But I imagine they were extremely relieved that I was alive and that the suspicion of murder, they were under a lot of pressure from the community, just driving down the street people would yell out at them ‘murderer’ and that kind of stuff. So, and there was some hostility from my family towards the crew wondering if they had done something.
Alan Steinfeld
But now you guys must be pretty close because you’ve been through so much together.
Travis Walton
No, we were together for the job and then when the job blew up because of what happened everybody went their separate ways. Now Steve showed up here a couple years ago and he’d been hiding out for all those years, didn’t want nothing to do with it. But now he’s out there speaking about it and it wasn’t until just this last month that I was finally after 20 years able to locate Dwayne Smith. So…
Alan Steinfeld
You hadn’t seen him since the incident?
Travis Walton
No, 20 years, I talked to him on the phone. I haven’t really seen him since right after the incident, but I talked to him on the phone back in 93 or thereabouts. But…
Alan Steinfeld
So what’s he saying now about the whole thing, Dwayne?
Travis Walton
He says he’s willing to come out and start talking about it, but he just, he’d see things on TV and he never felt the need to say anything, I don’t know. I think, for some of them, the stigma was so heavy, it was easier for them to just go about their lives and not say anything. Because John would be at some place and people start talking about it and he wouldn’t say oh that was me I was there. As a matter of fact, some people would brag that they were on that crew. Of course Steve knew they weren’t, they were just saying this, and he just sat there while they told the story about how well they knew us and this has happened to several guys on the crew, to hear people claiming that they worked with us or knew us and something like that. And somebody who actually was on the crew is standing right there listening to them and they don’t even know it. So there was a lot of that going on. But they were able to kind of go under the radar and not have it bother them as much. So now that I’ve fought the skeptics all these years and have broken trail, they’re a little more willing to come out and speak about it.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, so you sort of became a legend among the loggers, huh? In a way?
Travis Walton
Well. Yeah. Willingly or unwillingly, I guess.
Alan Steinfeld
Did you continue to do logging though after the whole thing?
Travis Walton
I had to go back to the woods, you get thrown off the horse, you gotta get back on, or it kick your butt. So I went back and I worked even alone in the woods. I admit that I went armed, but I did have to do it just to feel back on my feet.
Alan Steinfeld
How much after was that time? When did you return to the woods?
Travis Walton
Not too long.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, like just a couple of months or something?
Travis Walton
Well, I don’t really, I’ve never figured that out, but eventually I just quit that and went to work at the molding mill. Worked there for six or seven years and then I worked at the paper mill for 11 years.
Alan Steinfeld
And now what are you doing now?
Travis Walton
Well I took retirement and then because I could see the writing on the wall and sure enough they shut the paper mill down after 60 years. And other than my pensions from that, I just…
Alan Steinfeld
You must make something from speaking at some of these events, don’t you?
Travis Walton
Yeah.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s pretty good. I mean to travel the world and just talk about your experiences…
Travis Walton
Nothing that ever made anybody rich, but it makes it possible to do.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. I’m just curious and then we’ll just kind of wrap up, but thank you for your time, but did you ever see anything like that or any guys on the crew ever see another ship like that?
Travis Walton
I imagine everybody’s seen things at times and probably paid more attention to it because of what happened to us. But when you get right down to it, even people who say they don’t believe it, if you push them, they will admit that they have seen something that might have been something that extraordinary. And then you say, well, did you ever report it? And then they usually say, no.
Alan Steinfeld
Well what have you seen since 1975 that you might think was like that?
Travis Walton
Well, if I had something happen even as dramatic as what happened, I don’t know that I would come public with it. Like I said, I was forced to at the time and it really destroyed my life. So, you know something else back then. The skeptics were attacking the whole thing because I had a brother that had seen something about eight years before. And that’s really kind of a silly basis. But the theory at that time even amongst ufologists that believed in UFOs that if you were a quote repeater that that was less credible. Nowadays people are always saying, what, you haven’t had lifelong abductions your whole life? That doesn’t fit the pattern. So things have really reversed in that sense.You know the survey show that one out of seven people have seen something.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah
Travis Walton
So, I was from a family of seven and a crew of seven. The idea that somebody would have seen something before was not some suspicious situation, it was an overwhelming likelihood. Almost huge numbers of people have seen things.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, of course. Yeah, I mean movies, there’s been films, videos, photographs as well. But did you ever see anything else after that that was pretty odd?
Travis Walton
We took a picture of this silvery orb in the daytime sky, at work in the woods, took it in and enlarged it and it was a weather balloon.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh I see. Well there you go. Those weather balloons really do exist. But, but you haven’t seen like another orb, but probably, I guess you’d be more prepared… Yes, out in Joshua Tree, there’s that UFO Rock, they used to be gatherings there in the in the 50s right outside of Joshua Tree, do you know about that?
Travis Walton
Yeah, what was that? It was called Giant Rock or something?
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, Giant Rock, exactly. There were all these UFO gatherings, George Adamski, and the guy who built the Integratron. There were thousands of people would gather out there in the 50s waiting for some kind of craft to show up at this giant rock. It’d be a great trip out there if you when you’re out in Joshua Tree to just check it out and see what you think.
Travis Walton
Is the Integratron still there?
Alan Steinfeld
Yes, the Integratron built by George Van Tassel, yeah, it’s still there and you can go in it absolutely. Yes. Yeah. What do you know about that?
Travis Walton
No I just heard about it.
Alan Steinfeld
Well it’s supposed to conduct an interesting energy field because there’s no metal. There’s no metal nails nothing, it’s all wood and supposed to generate its own frequency. And yeah, that’s right about a mile from Giant Rock which is just really a few miles from the Joshua Tree Retreat Center. So…
Travis Walton
I had no idea there was any proximity at all.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah yeah.
Travis Walton
Are they planning on having tours go out there or something?
Alan Steinfeld
I think they were gonna I think talk to Victoria who’s running it but yeah I think she was going to have a tour out to Giant Rock. What day are you showing up do you know?
Travis Walton
I don’t remember I’d have to look at the schedule but I think this is a really a major event. There’s a whole lot of people coming together at one time here. I think it’s gonna be quite an event.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah let me just tell people who’s going to be there. Who’s going to the website. Richard Dolan as I mentioned, Jim Marrs who I think I’ll have on this program next week, who’s great at exposing the cover-up. Let’s see who else, Steven Greer who just did that movie Sirius, did you hear about that movie where they…?
Travis Walton
I heard about it just a little while ago, somebody sent me an email about it.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah he finds this little being in the desert in Chile and they do all this kind of DNA testing. Of course George Noory from Coast to Coast I think probably one of the most popular people. Giorgio Tsoukalos from Ancient Aliens, do you know that program Ancient Aliens?
Travis Walton
Yeah, I was on there, opening episode of season five.
Alan Steinfeld
He’s gonna be there. Michael Salla who’s an investigator. William Henry. Let’s see. Oh Roger Leir who does extractions of implants that people… have you met Roger at all, Roger Leir?
Travis Walton
Yeah I’ve met most of these people.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh yeah, so I think you’re right I think it is going to be a very significant event and I’ll be there as well. So I’ll get a chance to say hello maybe we could do an on-camera interview, I do a cable show as well and… do you know when you’re are you giving a talk and a workshop there, or do you know what your…?
Travis Walton
Yeah I think so. I’d have to look at the schedule but I’m pretty sure that’s why we’re doing that.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh right, great. And then there’s going I’m going to host the alien abduction panel on Sunday with a bunch of people talking about their…
Travis Walton
Am I on that panel?
Alan Steinfeld
Well you should be of course, I mean of course you weren’t abducted but you still… I’ll check, I mean I think you should be on that panel.
Travis Walton
Actually I really don’t care for panels. I was on one this last weekend in Roswell.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh really? Who was on that panel with you in Roswell?
Travis Walton
Yvonne Smith, Darryl Sims…
Alan Steinfeld
Oh what do you think of Darryl Sims’ ideas?
Travis Walton
Well the whole that’s my problem with panels is because everybody up there had a different take and it seems a little bit conflicting to actually it was confusing for the audience, that was some of the remarks that they were…
Alan Steinfeld
Well, but if you’re saying there’s all these different types of beings and all these people have their own expe- I mean I understand how it could be confusing, but also every it’s a subjective experience as well. People will have different types of experiences. I mean what I try to do hosting a panel is try to look for the common ground that we can agree upon.
Travis Walton
Right, that’s I would think would be the kind of goal that a panel would have is to find some consensus or thread of agreement that they could all, and all.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah. Well, let’s see. Alright, I mean, I’ll see you out there and
Travis Walton
Yeah, we’ll see you there.
Alan Steinfeld
So thanks for your time here. I really appreciate you opening up and spending a little time talking about your experiences. Because it’s so important that you come forward in the real sober matter-of-fact fashion style that you are.
Travis Walton
Yeah, I think it’s important. Sometimes I’ll say something at conferences that isn’t all that well received.
Alan Steinfeld
Like what?
Travis Walton
Well what I say is, instead of thinking of this as some kind of quasi-supernatural or kind of a monster story, you don’t look at it that way. It’s just those people from way over there that we don’t know very much about. And it’s like a lead balloon, I don’t know, it lets the air out, some people, they seem like they want to think of it that way. But tell you what, it took me decades to kind of come to that sort of understanding.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, no, that’s a really good point. But I think the trauma that they do exist over there and that they are so different yet in a way so similar to us is what people can’t get their heads around in a sense. Because we’ve been so limited in who we think we are.
Travis Walton
Mhm. Well, when the various explorers went to other cultures around the planet, they would often be greeted in ways to where they thought they were devils or gods or something. And it’s because they didn’t understand the difference in their ways and the difference in their appearance. And so we’re falling into the same trap of viewing them in this kind of a quasi-supernatural kind of a perspective that’s probably not warranted.
Alan Steinfeld
No, I agree, absolutely. They are just maybe just more evolved than us and because of that, they have a different perspective on the universe and a greater technology, but I don’t think they’re different from us in fundamental ways.
Travis Walton
Right, but not in a way that’s going to turn out to be mundane. I think there’ll be plenty of amazing surprises along the way, but still…
Alan Steinfeld
Well what do you think would be so surprising?
Travis Walton
Well, obviously, differences… I think what’s going to be the most surprising thing for people is the similarities. Not just between us and them, but between us and all the forms of life on their planets. I think rather than science-fiction, Hollywood take on things that there’s all these exotic forms, for the most part, we’re gonna be astonished at how similar life on other worlds is to life here. Now I know there’ll be some amazing creatures and we find amazing creatures here. But for the most part, the main part is just how similar the life forms are gonna be.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, thank you for that. But I do think what will be amazing is the way they think about reality. I’m sort of writing about how they see the world. Like your dog may see the world one way and your dog doesn’t know what you’re doing on the computer. I think that’s the difference between who we are and these advanced races. I think their intelligence and their capacity for awareness is vastly beyond what we can comprehend. And I think that’s really the trauma involved in these interactions is that we can’t understand…
Travis Walton
Because the unknown always winds up being fearful, threatening to us.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, it’s true, and we need to embrace the unknown if we’re going to evolve, and I think this whole interaction with these beings is where we are in our evolution.
Travis Walton
Yeah. Well, we’re getting there and I hope to help in the process.
Alan Steinfeld
And you definitely are. Thank you, Travis for your…
Travis Walton
Alright, well, good night, and I’ll see you in Joshua Tree.
Alan Steinfeld
I’ll see you out in Joshua Tree. Have a good night and thanks for doing the interview and I’ll send you an email about where this will be posted. Okay.
Travis Walton
Alright. Good night.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. Good night. I have been talking to Travis Walton. And for people who aren’t familiar with him, I still recommend Fire in the Sky, which is the movie made about his experiences in 1975 with a crew of loggers in the woods of Arizona. Probably one of the most dramatic cases of encounters with these other…
Travis Walton
Well if they would like to contact me, they can do that or even order a book through my website and that’s traviswalton.com.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. traviswalton.com. This is Alan Steinfeld for New Realities. If you want to reach me, go to newrealities.com or email me at a, the letter a, @newrealities.com. Thanks for listening and don’t forget to go to the Joshua Tree Retreat Center. Contact in the Desert, August 9th to the 11th. You can look up Joshua Tree Retreat Center, you go to my website newrealities.com, there’s a banner there. Actually if you enter, there’s a contest for two free tickets if you go to that website, look up the Contact in the Desert and you can enter a sweepstakes and win two free tickets to the conference. If not, I recommend it anyway, it’s going to be an amazing gathering of the top researchers in the field and people who’ve experienced these things and I think it’s going to change the paradigm for a lot of people who may not be aware of the level of contact we’ve already been involved in. Thanks for listening and tune in next week. Good night