New Realities recorded on December 18, 2021
Summary
Alan Steinfeld interviews Debra Jordan-Kauble , who shares her lifelong experiences with extraterrestrial and interdimensional beings. She details her personal journey from fear to spiritual awakening, discussing the profound impact of her encounters, her near-death experience, and her belief that these entities may be interdimensional or even from our future. They also touch on the broader implications of these experiences for human evolution and consciousness.
Transcript
Alan Steinfeld
Welcome to New Realities. My name is Alan Steinfeld, and I do this program because of experiences I’ve had with other beings, other levels of consciousness. And I love to find people that have had similar experiences, who are really leaders in the field. That’s why I’m so happy to have with me Debra Jordan-Kauble. She is the author of this new book called ‘Extraordinary Contact: Life Beyond Intruders’. If you don’t know what ‘Intruders’ was, it was one of Budd Hopkins’, who was a leader in the field, it was a book where he really told your story about your abduction experience. And it was quite a breakthrough, I think, for Budd and for the world, because somehow your story laid out a bigger picture of the situation. Would you agree? Is that why you feel your story is important in the abduction literature?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I’ve wondered. I’m sorry, I was thinking I’m going back to a time when I was in the studio with Budd after one of the first visits I made to New York after I made contact with him, after the June 30th, ’83 incident. I remember him pointing out multiple boxes of letters. He said there are hundreds and hundreds of letters in this office here from people that had read his book ‘Missing Time’, which I was one of them, and that’s how I got to him. I got the address out of that book. And I had this little epiphany and it was like, well, I was in this box with all these other people. Why is my letter the one that you answered? Why am I the one that you started this investigation on, and now we want to write another book? And he goes, well, that’s the $64,000 question, kid. I don’t know. And I said, maybe it’s destiny. He goes, maybe. He didn’t really believe in that.
Alan Steinfeld
No, but that is pretty amazing. It’s hundreds of letters in this box of people who have written to him and want to tell him their story. You wrote your letter and he just pulls you out of the file and contacts you.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I think one of the differences, what made our case stand out at that time was that we had physical evidence along with the things that I had remembered, which was not real common back then. And with the mark in the yard, and we also had independent witnesses, which is another thing that wasn’t necessarily common back then. And I think that’s why our case stood out back in 1983.
Alan Steinfeld
Do you also think that somehow, and who knows, there was you were directly, those beings, the phenomena directed Budd in a sense to focus on you, because you had such a lifetime of experience that other people don’t have?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I do. I do have an entire lifetime of experiences, and I do feel now, looking back, I feel that there was some external direction in my life. And the things I’ve been through and seen and the changes in me, I almost feel as if I have some role, I have some destiny in this.
Alan Steinfeld
No, go ahead. What were you saying?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
No, I just do. I just feel that I was born for this point in my life. Everything in my life has guided me and aimed me to this point in my life.
Alan Steinfeld
I have to say, it’s an incredible story. I figured I’ve read so many abduction books, and I figured this is another one. I could not put this book down. There was something really captivating and readable and relatable because of my experience. But yours is so much more full-blown and it’s crazy. It’s fantastic. It’s fascinating. And what I liked is that you really worked through the fear in the book, and by the end of the book, you’ve resolved those traumas, it feels like. What was the key to resolving, because I’m looking to understand, how do we resolve such a shocking trauma of being confronted by beings that we are totally not prepared for?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Well, I think everyone’s different because everybody deals with things in different ways. For me, I kind of convinced myself, I talked myself into feeling safe. What I would tell myself things like, well, look, if they wanted to hurt me, I’d already be dead. If they wanted to hurt any of us, we’d already be gone, because obviously from what I could see what they were capable of, we were not close to that. So I kept trying to tell myself, look, look what you remember seeing, and you’re okay. You’re here, you’re okay. Yeah, I had some damage to my eyes after June 30th, ’83, but even at that very moment that things were happening, something was telling me, something outside of me was telling me that it was unfortunate that I had felt this pain. And I was left with a feeling later on in life that almost I felt like I was being protected or guided. And honest to God, I’m a cat with nine lives, and I think I’ve spent three or four of them now at 62, almost 63. And there’s been several times in my life I should have died, and I did not, and it mystifies my doctors. And so I feel like I’ve been kind of protected, and that’s given me some comfort and allowed me to relax a little and absorb some more of this and learn something from it.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, but you had a hard time. It wasn’t, I mean, you went through awful things. I mean, just the human side of it, watching your husband shoot himself, I mean, that was…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I’ve had things happen in my life that nobody, people my age that haven’t experienced one of those things, and I’ve had a boatload of them. I mean, I had a tornado drop a house on me, and I was dug out of the debris without a scratch on me. I watched my late husband commit suicide in front of me and every sheriff in Howard County. And yet, and it’s been 26 years, and I can look back on that time now. I mean, I was broken up then. I was pretty tore up and traumatic. But now, 26 years later, I can look back on that and say, almost, people think I’m insane because I’ll say that was a gift to me, that I was placed in that position where I was, because had I not had that low, and that drama, and that trauma, I would not have been catapulted to where I’ve been now. I look at myself as a little bean in a slingshot. And when I’m pulled down in the deepest parts of my life in the things like that that happened, and the other like the June 30, ’83 trauma, I feel like the further down I’m pulled, whoever’s pulling the slingshot, when they let go of me, I go higher. And the farther down I go, the higher I go. See what I mean? That’s how I see this. It’s almost like I can pull myself out of it and look at my life and my world from somewhere else.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, there was one key point in the book where you hear the voice talking to you, and they’re talking about the upgrade in the vibration where you’re really looking at the fear, dealing with it. And somehow that’s a shift. You shift your consciousness because somehow you were able to integrate the traumas. Was that a key moment? What?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Yeah. That night in June, when I was hit with that light, I said it to Budd, and he kind of, he was very sympathetic, but you know how Budd was, he was nuts and bolts, and the emergency room of the whole phenomenon. So he saw a lot of messed up, poor, like me people. But I kept telling him something in me changed. Something’s different. It’s like that night something died in me and something was reborn at the same time. And it was these birth pains that I struggled through that first year, when I felt like I was having a nervous breakdown practically.
Alan Steinfeld
But what was that moment? Because I want people to read the book, but what exactly happened? So it was after your experience in 1983, and then what happens at that time where you see the light and everything changed? Can you summarize that?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
That was 1983. That was part of the experience in ’83. When I was out in the yard looking for what I thought were prowlers. And as I stepped out of the garage to leave the garage that was attached to the house, that’s when that light hit me in the chest. I mean, it started like right here where your solar plexus is, like between your chest and your abdomen, and it spread all through me. And I felt vibrating. I felt like my body was vibrating. I was frozen. I couldn’t move. I was like, time was froze. And I could feel like every single molecule of my being vibrate independently, like I had come apart. And then the light was so intense and bright that I know my eyes were shut, but I could still see it. And at one point, I couldn’t tell whether it was coming into me or coming out of me. It’s like I was imploding and exploding at the same time. It’s just the weirdest feeling. And it seemed like it lasted forever, but I know it didn’t. And then when it stopped, I was now outside of the garage door. I don’t recall how I got there. The vibration stopped, the pain in my eyes stopped. My vision was now blown. I had blotches all over my vision, and my eyes were never the same after that. But and I saw movement out in front of me in the yard, and then I saw that small egg-shaped thing off to my left that I thought were little kids in the yard were moving towards it. But when that light hit me, that’s when something in me changed. I mean, I’d had memories of experiences previous to June 30, ’83. In particular one that was, my husband at the time and my family, my mom tried to tell me, oh, you just had a bad dream. I’m like, no, this was not a dream. I was not asleep. And I told them, these two gray guys, I called them gray guys, were in my bedroom. I’m laying in bed next to my husband at the time, he’s sound asleep, and I can’t wake him up. And as they move closer to me, I’m panicking and freaking out. I’m like, please don’t touch me. Don’t kill me. That was, but then, I don’t know how, suddenly I’m not afraid anymore. I’m calm. They have this black box that they float to me. I ask them if I can have it. What is it? And they said, no, you can’t have it, but when you see it again, you’ll know how to use it, you’ll know what it’s for. I’m like, okay. And then they went away and I fell asleep. As soon as they left, I just went right out. And then when I woke up in the morning, I remembered everything. And I told my husband, I was freaking out and called my mom and told her on the phone, they’re like, okay.
Alan Steinfeld
But something had happened. What was… but you didn’t integrate it till much later. You didn’t. So at that moment, you’re saying something shifted in your consciousness, but you weren’t aware of it until many years later?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Well, something happened to me on June 30th. That June 30th, ’83, when that light hit me, something in me changed. And I think the changes started right away. I was not able to assimilate it all. I mean, it was like too much for me all at once. And like I said, I felt like I had a nervous breakdown. But gradually over time, I was able to sort it out and sift through it for myself. And that’s when I started realizing that I was really changing and growing. I was reading and learning about things. I’m from Indiana, Midwest girl, born and raised, never went anywhere else before that. I didn’t have information in my life about Eastern religions or philosophy or anything like that. I barely got out of high school. I mean, and so I started coming to these conclusions spiritually and psychically and everything on my own. And it wasn’t until I got older and I got more exposed to the world because of Budd, taking me around and meeting people. And then on my own, reading and meeting people and realizing, oh my god, look, I have come to these conclusions and I’ve come to this growth and development all by myself out here in the middle of nowhere. It has to mean something because all these other people came to the same thing and they had different lives than me. So this has to be real.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, but what, I’m trying to understand, because in my life too, what is the connection to spiritual awakening in a sense, and the abduction and needing these little beings that don’t seem very spiritual, they take people, they take our genetics. But I think you’re right, but where is the spirituality that comes, that is awakened through those experiences?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I’m not quite sure. I can tell you it may have been something that was always in me, but dormant. I started having, when I was a kid. My mom was a Pentecost, church three days a week, don’t cut your hair, wear long skirts. Daddy was a Catholic altar boy. When they met each other and they were teenagers, they said, bye organized religion. And they went off and were 55 years when mom passed. But so I didn’t really go to church or was not raised in a religious household. But it was weird because these people were put in my path in my life as a child. I mean, I would go spend the night with a friend and then their parents would take me to their church. And so I ended up going to a Quaker church and Catholic church and Methodist and Episcopalian. I went to all these different churches as a kid. And I saw all these things that I guess must have seeped into me. I began to realize, like, look, you guys don’t seem to understand that y’all are saying the same thing. You’re just using different words. I don’t know why you’re so against each other because it’s all the same, pretty much. And this was as a teenager. So I don’t know if part of that was a part of, well, obviously it had to be. I’m sorry.
Alan Steinfeld
You want to get that? You can get that.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
No, because it’s probably… That’s okay. It’s probably spam.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay, but so I’m just trying to make it shut up there. Oh, it’s okay. But maybe from what you’re saying on you’re talking, maybe just having contact possibly with these beings somehow shifts the vibrations and opens the mind, because I don’t think they’re of this world. I think they come through some dimensional doorways.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Yes, definitely. I mean, I was even talked to Budd and I’m like, I didn’t feel like what I was having contact with had come in a spacecraft and flown here from another planet. I felt like someone was teaching. Maybe when I slept, I feel like sometimes when I slept, I went other places, okay? And I felt like there was someone always teaching me and putting these thoughts in my mind that, you know, like the world is not what you think it is, it’s not what you see with just your eyes and ears, and that at least the ones I mostly had contact with are right here with us, but just in a different plane of existence.
Alan Steinfeld
But there are ships though too, there are these physical crafts that leave marks on your lawn and I mean… Yeah.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
But I do think you’re right… But I don’t think those ships are flying from other planets. I think they’re those are vehicles coming… I think that’s what some of them… I think there’s more than one thing going on. For sure, there’s multiple things going on, and there’s multiple agendas. But I believe in, at least in my case, like for instance, the ship in the backyard that everybody called the spacecraft. There’s no way, logically, my mind says there’s no way that six little kids can go in that thing and fly anywhere. That was not a spaceship in the way we think of spaceships. That was some kind of a portal or a vehicle, a means of transportation, temporary short term. And so I think, and I think some of the things that we see in the sky at night are that also. They’re not coming from other planets, theyre coming from maybe some places right here on this planet that we aren’t aware of yet, and from another dimension. It’s like some of them know how to open a door and step right into here and then step right back out. I also believe there are humans here that know this and know how to do that and are working with somebody over there. I started getting these thoughts in my head about extra-dimension and inter-dimensional things, and I began to feel, got involved with paranormal stuff, quote-unquote ghost hunters in the early 2000s, because I started capturing disembodied voices on audio equipment. And it seemed like I was getting them more frequently than all of my cohorts. And I began to, I had an epiphany once when an EVP I caught, I heard the man’s voice say, ‘Are the spirits listening?’ And another little voice said, ‘Can I listen too?’ And I had this epiphany that, oh my god, I am a spirit somewhere else and someone is listening for me!
Alan Steinfeld
Right. And that goes with…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Yeah, I was just gonna say, that’s when I realized that what I was dealing with here as far as paranormal stuff goes, was probably not dead people, so to speak. And I had a near-death experience when I gave birth to my first son. Several months after I had the, Robbie was born in July ’79. I had the experience in ’78 with the black box and the two gray guys. Well, during my near-death experience, I didn’t see a white light and tunnels and all that stuff, but I did know that my body was… I felt it detached from my… I felt me detach from my body. And I heard the voices go further and further away, the doctors and the screaming and all the noise. I had it, what happened was my heart stopped twice in delivery and I had to be resuscitated. And then I heard a voice in my head that said, ‘You can’t leave yet. You’re a little baby, you just had a baby.’ And I think that was a nurse whispering in my ear. But before she mentioned that I had a baby, I’d completely forgotten that I had the baby. I just wanted to get out of the body. I was banging on this black box, but I feel like something didn’t let me out because they knew I wasn’t done here yet. And then when the nurse said baby, I’m like, oh my god, I just had a baby, I can’t leave! And then boom, I reattached. And then I was talking to Whitley about it not too terribly long ago, maybe late this last summer, and he says, you know what, maybe that black box that the gray guys showed you was the black box that you found your soul in when you tried to leave.
Alan Steinfeld
Does that sound right? Does that feel right?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Yes, it does. It feels right, because it feels like something stopped me from leaving, and it almost kind of gave me a little panic attack afterwards, like, oh my god, when I die, am I gonna be able to get out of here? You know. But I think when it’s time for me to, I will. But I think somebody stopped me in a box, it was like somebody captured my soul in some other dimension. And that’s kind of when my mind just, after I had the near-death experience, on top of the paranormal experience, and then later on the June 30, ’83 incident. All these different things combined in me all at once, like the perfect storm, and it just flipped open switches in my head. I told somebody, I think I grew some extra circuits up here because I started to realize, I started to see more and I started to learn more and hear more, and grow. And that’s when it really flipped. I was gonna say, the June 30th incident was kind of, you know, the The light and the electrical brightness, it was almost like somebody plugged me in. I got all my wiring done and then someone plugged me in on June 30th and then it went.
Alan Steinfeld
So what’s happened to you is what we’re all capable of when we open up this greater part of our mind. I wanted to talk to you about what you were saying to Richard Dolan when you had that conversation with the orb of light. Can you tell us that? You were thinking just not too long ago that this orb came to you and that orb said to you, you look like an orb from where they are.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Yes. It was just an odd little thing. I think I wrote it down here. I’m getting old, so I That’s why I wrote a book because Daddy had dementia, my older sister has dementia.
Alan Steinfeld
No, but you’re getting smarter.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I know, but I just don’t want to lose it all. I feel like my brain isn’t big enough.
Alan Steinfeld
But that was a really interesting conversation from the perspective of you being an orb. We’re all little lights from this other level of awareness. And that always made sense to me that who we really are are just lights, light beings, light essences inside this physical body. So, I mean…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
No, I do. I remember it. And I just remember it said, you look like this. You know, I saw these little flecks of light and basically it’s like, you look like this to us. You know, and they said I was brighter than some other ones and they noticed it. But where they live, they look like me. See, so it’s like I guess in a mirror.
Alan Steinfeld
Do you think we are from, like you say, these ETs or whatever they are, are not really coming from some place else. This is what Jacques Vallee says. Maybe there’s something bigger here in this dimension for sure that we are not aware of, that we…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Well, okay, I was out taking a walk is when it happened. I was awake. It wasn’t a dream or anything. So I was out taking a walk. And a lot of times when I’m outside in nature walking, I kind of zone out. And then I heard this voice that came in my head that said, hey, Deb, from this side you look like a little bright bubble of light just floating through your daily life out here in our darkness. You are brighter than most. We see all of your kind out here, but you are only perceivable as light here. But when you see tiny lights, that’s how we look to you from where you are. But actually here, where we are, we look like you. And I said, so are you dead? And it kind of chuckled and said, I’m as alive as you are. And then I asked, are you the gray guys? And it said, no, we’re your future. And then it went quiet.
Alan Steinfeld
Wow. They’re our future. That’s what he said. I love that you get these messages.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
And I write them down because I remember them, but I don’t remember the little details. So that way I write them all down so I remember. I had a dream not too long ago, it was a really vivid one. You might get a kick out of this. I visited my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandson from the future. He came and got me and took me to the future. And he took me to this really neat hospital slash hotel place or whatever. But the one thing I remember that stuck in my head in this dream was that when I went to the bathroom, the toilet could tell you your health based on what you did in there. It could tell you what vitamins you needed, if you had some sickness going on, it evaluated your whole health situation by what came out of you.
Alan Steinfeld
Amazing. That is the future. That really is.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
And the thing about that one was, I had that one quite a while back, before any of that. Somebody said to me, oh, you should patent that idea.
Alan Steinfeld
They probably can do that. They just can do it in a lab, not on a toilet, but that probably is something that is happening. But what do you think the big picture here is? If these beings are coming maybe interdimensionally, why are they taking our genetics for sure? I mean, sperm, eggs, they’re creating this race of beings, but is the body, but they’re going interdimensionally. Is our body, is the body itself more than just this dimension? And you mentioned the blood. Is the blood a kind of interdimensional vehicle of the soul possibly? I mean, no one knows these answers, but I’m just curious what you think, because I’m just trying to figure it out with you what’s really going on.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Well, when I had been told many over and over again by whatever was teaching me things that all the answers that we sought were in our blood. And then I kept, you know, and I told Budd that, Budd knew about it, I told John Carpenter, I told Forest Crawford, I told a lot of researchers at the time, I told Linda Howe. Anybody who would listen to me, I told. Just look at my blood, look at my blood, look at everybody’s blood, you know? And now I think what it was referring to was DNA. And I feel like DNA is more than just I think that there are messages. I think there’s history encoded in our DNA that tell us exactly who we are, where we come from, and where we’re going. And I also believe that human beings are very powerful, magnificent beings that we don’t realize it. We don’t understand how powerful our thoughts are. And that we, I feel that our thoughts, look around you, everything around you began with a thought. Our thoughts are powerful. And human beings need to recognize that and they need to, some people don’t want to be responsible, so that way when things go awry they can blame someone else, but it’s not how it works.
Alan Steinfeld
Thank you for saying that because it reminded me the thing that really turned me onto you was that last page of Intruders. I just want to read it because it’s so dramatic, and it’s such a well written thing. This is you talking to a group of people and Budd Hopkins ends the book with this. It’s that last paragraph. Do you know what I’m talking about?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I can’t remember, it’s been so long.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, you address a group of people, abductees, and you say, none of us know what the UFO phenomenon really is or what its ultimate purpose may be, but in the absence of answers, we must at least act upon our feelings. In place of simple-minded ridicule and dismissal so often encountered, we must offer understanding and heartfelt emotional support to these fellow human beings who have endured such profoundly unsettling, unfathomable, truly alien experiences. They are in every sense of the word victims, and yet unasked, they are also pioneers. For good or for ill, they have seen the future. That’s you speaking there at the end of Intruders. I think it’s you.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I don’t know. I don’t remember.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes, Kathie’s, yeah, I think you say this. A few moments. Yeah, you’re at a meeting, it’s the last part. But that was just really beautiful.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Sometimes I say things and I wonder if I’m actually the one saying them.
Alan Steinfeld
You know, you’re at this meeting, and then Budd is noticing Kathie’s bitterness and sadness filled her for a while while she sat in silence. A few minutes later, she added something about her feelings of anger towards the UFO experiences. And you say, when I talked about being angry because of what they’re doing, it’s always has to do with children. When they started fooling around with kids, Tommy and Robbie, I got mad, really mad. Not for myself. Yeah.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Right. I do. I was angry. And I, you know, I felt like I was, I didn’t ask for any of this. And almost I was more angry at people because people were such jerks and didn’t want to hear what me or people like me were saying. The stigma was horrible 38 years ago. It’s much better now, but it needs work.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah. No, it’s still, it still needs a lot of work.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
It needs a lot of work. But 38 years ago, you know, I often wondered if I was just crazy for speaking out. Somebody said, people would make comments like, oh, you just want to be famous and make a book. I’m like, who in their right mind would want to be famous for that?
Alan Steinfeld
No, no, no. Actually what I read may have been Budd’s words commenting on your…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
It sounds more like Budd.
Alan Steinfeld
I think it was Budd’s words. And it’s really well written. But it really took me, but you went from anger into kind of, how did you work through the anger and into the acceptance? I mean, how do you let go of the fear? I mean, through the book you wrote you do it, but you know, there is something very not nice about them taking children and people and genetics, and I mean, this is huge.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Yeah. In my mind, well, you know, in the beginning I always I thought about it all as dreams. Because that’s the only way I could live with it. I had two little kids to raise and at that point I was a single mom. So I had a big plate to fill, you know? And I couldn’t afford to lose my marbles with something that I couldn’t, you know, that I didn’t have any solid proof of other than the mark in the backyard and the neighbors. Something that the rest of the world would consider me crazy about. So I had to put it in a place where I could leave it and try to function. And then, but the world or whatever was going on had different ideas for me. Because little things would come at me. I would have all these just strange, you know, like in my book, I’d out all the little strange, like I met the weird guy at Walmart that time who looked strange at me. Mom and I had that sighting in 84 of that black boomerang like thing over the house. Just all kinds of little things like that would happen. And people would come into my life. Budd came into my life. It just began to seem as if there was some kind of purpose to the madness. And I said I started to convince myself that I was okay. That I was safe because I’m still here. You know, and they didn’t kill me. You know that you just kind of talk I just kind of talked myself into that. And in the beginning, when Budd started to show me what other people were drawing and saying, I didn’t handle it very well. Like the first time he showed me a drawing of an alien head, you know, the big eyes, I literally threw up because it struck me so hard, because there were only two ways this woman could have drawn what I saw so well, even down to the shading. And it was either she got in my head and saw what I had in my head or she saw the same thing I did. Well, I knew she hadn’t gotten into my head. So I mean it was validation. And Budd thought it would give me comfort and eventually it did. But in the beginning, it did not. It actually kind of screwed up my coping mechanism for a while, you know? I couldn’t say it was a dream anymore.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s the thing I think the world is now starting to kind of come to terms with, as the government comes out. I’m sure you’ve been following the disclosure news. It’s like, yes, you have to, I mean, you are much more extreme your experiences, but I think I had some kind of contact since I was young. And I think how is this even possible to consider in a world that doesn’t give any value to it? Like walking around like this just isn’t even possible. And I’ve heard Lou Elizondo asked about abductions, and he said something like, these beings have no right to come and take us. He was well aware of what’s happening. But still there’s our world, and then there’s the world that thinks this is just insane, you know? John Mack would call it ontological shock. The shock that reality isn’t what people thought it wasn’t. So I think what you’re doing and your work and Budd, of course, was a leader in this, we’re trying to show people reality is not what they thought it was. And there’s so much like this, scientists, you look at Neil deGrasse Tyson on someone asking about UAPs. He goes, oh, those are just artifacts of the radar. It’s like, it’s like, how can smart people be so dumb?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
He gets on my nerves. He’s awful, awful. It’s, I mean, cause there, this is what I’m, I’m just a little hick from Indiana. But even I can realize that, okay, you guys are looking at this with human, Earth, human, science, here in this existence, whatever. This might be gobbledegook somewhere else. Who the hell knows? And how, you don’t know, they don’t know. They like to think they do. But when it comes to this, they don’t know any more than anybody else. Because nothing, nothing at all could be, you know, like I’ve said, I might be like ants to them. I might not even be aware of their whole life, like ants are living in the dirt in that little hole in the ground down here on my patio, just going around dragging dirt and leaves and everything and having their little life, and they don’t even know I exist. But I’m here right here, and all I gotta do is step on them and squish them and they’re gone. Poof, bye. You know what I mean? Maybe we’re the ants. And everything we think we know about science doesn’t apply where they’re from. And makes no sense to them. So I don’t know why these guys get all high and mighty. Like when we’re talking about something that’s not even human, we may not even be able to conceive, in our brains might not even be able to think what they are or what they do. Anything that I talk about or write is my opinion. Because I don’t have, I’m not a scientist, I’m going on my gut and my instinct.
Alan Steinfeld
And your experience, too. Your experience, and that’s why I like talking to you and people like you, because my experience, was it a dream, was it this, I don’t know. But your experience is undeniable. I don’t think you, right? It’s like…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
No, the mark in the yard, and other things that I’ve seen with other people, you know, we all have to be crazy at the same time. I don’t think that’s likely.
Alan Steinfeld
So how is that, how do we get the world to wake up to this bigger thing that’s obviously here? It’s in the skies, it’s around, it’s…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
What we’re doing right now. Your podcast, me talking, and making a fool out of myself on TV and public. Just, you know, like I, you know, I wrote the book for people. I wrote it for my granddaughter and for all the people in my life that will come after me and my family. So they know me, they know the real story. They know it from the horse’s mouth and they know where they came from and who they are. Okay? And for everyone like me out there who has had these experiences and at least I don’t have a lot of answers, but I can show you that I have so far come through it all mostly in one piece and fairly okay.
Alan Steinfeld
Better off. Better off for it. But isn’t it comforting, I’m going to show a picture of you and some other, like, well known abductees. Here you are back in, whenever that was, that’s Betty Hill, Travis Walton, and I don’t know this other woman.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
That’s Rosemary Osnato. She worked with Budd in New York a lot. And Budd introduced us together and she was kind of like one of my big sister buddies, you know, in his little buddy system.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, right. But Betty Hill, that case really kicked everything. Betty and Barney Hill, that is the story. And Travis, love Travis, spent a lot of time talking to him, interviewing him, he spent five days aboard a ship, and people are always trying to tear him down, but he stuck with it. These are people, don’t you feel a sort of connection with these people that you don’t find with other people somehow?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Yes. Um, it’s like I can walk into a room and talk to people, and within a couple of minutes, I know what you’ve had happen. I don’t know why, but I just feel it. It’s a connection.
Alan Steinfeld
Do you think something happened with me? Do you feel…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Well, yeah. I mean, I’m obsessed with, yeah. You don’t get that way for no reason. You know, I used to tell Budd all the time, Budd, did you have something? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. I saw a UFO with some friends on the cape one time. We thought it was, but that’s it. Nope. I said, are you sure you haven’t been abducted? Nope, nope, nope. And I’m like, I don’t know. I always kind of felt like there was something more there. And he just didn’t…
Alan Steinfeld
Look at his series. Look at his painting series, right? The Watchers.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
The Guardians.
Alan Steinfeld
The Guardians, yeah. Yes. I mean, that is something. Maybe I have a book of his somewhere here. But…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I have a couple of his Guardian works on my wall here in my office. I wish I could turn my I can’t lift my computer. It’s all one big giant thing. Here’s one of these Guardians, these beings that that he just would create and I think Budd was really, you know, afraid and supplementing that fear by working with other people. I mean, he was a great guy, but I here’s one, here’s one of his original guardians.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I have that actual one. I have the actual lithograph of that one right up on my wall.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, you have the lithograph of that one? That’s great. Yeah. Now Budd would call these beings, because they were like beings, guardians. So what do you think happened to Budd that he, I mean, he was a great guy, but he was in denial of that.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
There I go. I just want you to see how weird it is that we have, you whipped out the same one.
Alan Steinfeld
I know what I mean. Let me just put this back on. Yes. This is an original, you have, that is great. Isn’t that weird?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Carol Rainey gave this to me, his she sent this to me. This is an original…
Alan Steinfeld
Is this a lighograph or a drawing or something?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
This is a, this is a lithograph of what he did. So, but it’s just so funny that you had the exact same one.
Alan Steinfeld
I know. The universe speaks to us in many different ways and sometimes it’s just little stuff like this. But the Guardians, he called this whole series the Guardian series. So maybe, no, no, don’t be sorry. I think that’s great.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I had to do that. When I saw it I’m like, okay.
Alan Steinfeld
I’m glad you did that. Evidence of Unseen was the name of this collection of pictures. But I think Budd did, and maybe he had too much fear or supplemented it.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
He was the most compassionate and empathic person I ever met. He had such great compassion and heartfelt care and concern for people. And I always said he was in the emergency room of the entire abduction UFO thing. He saw the most damaged people like me. And it was hard on him. I know it was. It broke his heart. There were times when he would cry with me.
Alan Steinfeld
Wow.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
And you know, that takes a toll on you after a while, and I think that it he took on a lot of people’s pain, and that drove him. He just wanted to help. He just wanted to help.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, he was a great guy. I’m actually I cried at some parts in your book, it was they were really touching. Like when you talk about that guy Lars that you meet, and…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Even Budd was like, when I told him about meeting this guy on the bus, I’m like…
Alan Steinfeld
Can you talk about that a little bit, the whole story, because people haven’t read the book, but it’s just so…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
That’s a whole book in and of itself, that whole 17-hour bus trip. That was my first trip to New York after I met, you know after I got in touch with Bud, I had gone to New York. Sold my washer and dryer that was in storage to get a bus ticket to go. Thought I was insane. Almost jumped off the bus halfway there, like, what are you doing? You don’t even know this guy. He could be an axe murderer, you know. But on the way home, first stop was in Pennsylvania somewhere, I think it was in Philadelphia. And I was not a… I was very young, I was like 23. I didn’t travel well because I was always afraid of getting lost, which I think stemmed from earlier.
Alan Steinfeld
Other contact experiences.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Yeah. So, but… and on the way there, I was always leery of people, we were going to the big city, New York, you know, I saw the movies and things. I had this preconditioned in my head about what it was.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
So I like slept with my purse like wrapped around my neck, bunched up so no one touched me, you know. And so on the way home I thought, my God, I don’t want to sit with anybody, those people scare me. I’m just going to pretend like I’m asleep and lay out here on this, you know, bench seat, the bus, and maybe people leave me alone. Hopefully it won’t be a full bus and they won’t make me get up. And I felt the people getting on, and I popped my head up over the bus seat to just kind of peek and see who’s getting on. And Lars had stepped on the bus and was walking up the bus steps. And it was like looking straight at me as he got on the bus. It was like he was getting on there like he knew I was there. And he was so gorgeous. He was the most gorgeous perfect human being I’ve ever seen in my life. He literally took my breath away. When I saw him, I was like… And I ducked my head back down and I remember thinking to myself, oh my God, if I have to sit with someone, I hope it’s him. Please God let it be because he was so gorgeous. He had like his hair was down about his shoulders, kind of sandy blonde, wavy, the beautiful face, chiseled, you know, beautiful chin, perfect mouth. And his eyes were so blue, and they locked on me the moment that we made eye contact, and he just smiled, and I was like…
Alan Steinfeld
Do you think it was a soul connection or something? Well anyway, continue.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I don’t know, it was just… But tell tell the people what happened then, because it was just like magic.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
So the whole bus trip was weird. At one point the bus stopped in the middle of nowhere in this field. I mean we were like driving through the middle of nowhere and the bus driver just pulls over and it’s like nothing around. You could see some grass and stuff from the bus lights outside the bus outside. And then I’m like, what’s going on, what’s happening? And Lars says to me, no, don’t worry, it’s okay. And I’m like, but why are we stopped, you know? And we could see the bus driver like walking out into the darkness and I’m like, where is he going, what’s happening? And Lars says, maybe he’s just going to the bathroom. And I said, well there’s a bathroom right here behind us in the bus, you know.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
So that was weird. He came back and we left, and we had this strange where we stopped at the… in the middle of the night we stopped at this really cool bus station, like truck stop thing, and I thought it was so cool because it was like double-decker, kind of round and all lit up. And I thought, that is so cool, you know. We got there, I was the only one who got off the bus. And I went in and got something to eat because I was hungry. Even Lars said, no, I’m not hungry, you’ll stay here, you just go. It was me and the bus driver, the only one that got off. So I went in and I got my food and it was two girls that looked like twins and an old guy. And everybody had brown hair and brown eyes, you know, they look related. And I sat down to eat my food and I thought, this tastes like crap, you know. Everything tasted like cardboard and even the orange juice tasted just like water. It was gross, but I thought, okay, I’m hungry. So I ate it, and everyone in there was just staring at me as I ate this stuff. Even the bus driver who was sitting at a table and had a cup of coffee in his hand was staring at me. And I’m like, this is kind of weird, but I’m hungry, maybe I’m just tired, you know. So I go to the bathroom before I get back on the bus. When I open the bathroom door, there’s a mirror is facing the door. So you would think when you open the door and you walk in, the first thing you see is you, right? When I open the door, the first thing I saw was a girl, a white… blonde white hair, big blue eyes, and the most beautiful like cobalt blue shirt on. And I was like… I was taken aback because I expected to look up and see myself in the mirror. And then when I saw that, I’m like, whoa, and I rub my eyes and when I looked again, it’s just me. And I’m like, wow, I thought I must be really tired. So I went to the bathroom, got back on the bus. Everybody was asleep.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
The fun part started when we got to… Let’s see. He was going to… I had to go on to Indianapolis and he had to go to Cincinnati. We got to Columbus and that’s where our bus… that’s where we had to change buses. But we had a layover. So we went to the Burger King in the bus stop. And they had a real limited menu. They didn’t have a lot of stuff on there. And he was… I said I’m hungry and let’s get something to eat. And we’re looking at the menu items and he’s asking, what’s this? What’s this? What’s this? Like, what’s a, you know, bacon, egg and cheese croissant or whatever. And finally he says, just give me one of each and four drinks. He got four drinks. I think four orange shoes. And the girls looked at him like, uh, okay, you know, he wasn’t fat or anything, but… And I got something and we sat down. And then I’m thinking in my head, oh my God, I’m never going to see this guy again. And I thought I’ll die if I’m not near him. I mean, I literally felt like I was breaking apart inside. And then I thought in my mind, he didn’t even ask for my phone number. And as soon as I thought that, he looked up at me and smiled and he goes, don’t be sad. I promise I’ll come back for you. I will come back. And he said, there he said, there’s a place I want to take you near where you live that it’s a long silver trailer. And I want to take you there and dance with you.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
And I said, okay. And then he said, give me your phone number. You know, because I had thought he didn’t even ask me for my phone number. So he’s like, give me your phone number. Then when he said that about dancing with me, I had this thought in my head as like, what… at that point in my life, I was young. When I did housework or I was alone in the house, I would turn my stereo up real loud and dance through the house. Just dance. And I often felt like someone was watching me. Like on the sidelines and you know, not in a paranoid way, but in like a way. And when he said I want to take you there and dance with you, I remembered, and I thought, I never said it out loud, but I thought to myself, are you the one that watches me dance? I thought that in my head, you know, he just smiled at me. Then after we ate, he says to me, I don’t feel good. And he’s holding onto his stomach. And I said, what? I said, well, maybe it’s… maybe you got a puke. He says, what is puke? And I told him, you know, what’s when this stuff comes out. I said, you ate so much crap, I’m not surprised. And I gave him two Pepto-Bismol tablets. Remember those? Yeah. And I said, here, chew on these. And he goes, those are interesting. What are those? And he wanted to see the box and he read the ingredients out loud and then he put the tablets in his shirt pocket. And I said, they’re not going to do you any good there. And he goes, well, I’ll take them later. So we went to the bathroom, and I started to go into the ladies’ room and he started to follow me. And I said, no, no, you can’t come in here. He said, why not? And I said, I said, this is a ladies’ room. Yours is over there. And I said, you see the pants? That’s that’s you. See the little dress, that’s me, girl, and your boy. He goes, oh, okay, I get it. And I’m thinking, damn, don’t they have, you know, universal signal signs in Sweden or wherever it is you said you were from. Yeah. And so I came when I went to the bathroom, when I came back out, he was like literally standing right there at the door, almost knocked him over. Because he was like didn’t want to leave my side. It was just the weirdest thing. And I just, I don’t know, I had a fiancé and two little kids, but I would have followed up to wherever.
Alan Steinfeld
But you never did see him again, huh? You never…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I never saw him again. I spoke to him on the phone. Bud found him. I was able to remember enough details about our conversations that Bud was able to find him in his friend in in Cincinnati and talk to his friend and then talk to him. And then I spoke to him on the phone and I mailed a little coin to him holding hands of bronze coin. Right. And he called me and said he got the coin and he would always, you know, keep it with him and always think of me and and then I never did hear from him again ever. But I found out and I tried to find him on the internet for years. I was not good with the Google and, you know, this was in the 80s and I didn’t even have a computer at the time. So it was years and years later I tried to find him. And I found, um, just not too many years ago, I actually found his tombstone and where he’s buried in Sweden, the plot where his grave is, his full all three names and his date of birth and the death date. His date of birth matches, the names match, it has to be him. That has to be why… And the and the reason that I never heard from him is again is because he died within a year of us meeting. Wow. But I had had several lucid dreams where he came to me in these dreams. One of the dreams he tried to take me somewhere and then realized I wasn’t able to go and had to send me back. Wow. And one dream I was in the hospital and he came to see me and asked me why I was there. And the next morning, why I was in the hospital went away and I was released. And, so I believe that he’s still… around me.
Alan Steinfeld
Do you still feel that soul connection to him like very close like someone…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Sometimes yes, definitely.
Alan Steinfeld
I wonder what that is. And also what was that person you saw in the mirror, was that you on another level that I mean…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I don’t know.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, it could have been.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I do not know. I do not know who it was or why I saw it. I don’t know.
Alan Steinfeld
You know I don’t know. Well, you know, yeah, no I I appreciate your honesty. I mean, yeah, instead of guessing, it’s very… But the other thing I want to talk to you about, and thank you for telling that story because it was really beautifully written in the book and I had, you know, just hoped you had seen him again but the whole… I think I will. You might. He might show up in your dreams. The whole connection though between the paranormal and the UFO, this is something you know in this book. Did you read this book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon? That’s the latest disclosure book. It’s mostly a government mostly a government inside look at the ATIP program. They do a lot… Skinwalkers of the Pentagon. George Knapp is a co-writer and it’s… they talk a lot…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I read the original Skinwalkers Ranch book, but I’ve not read that one.
Alan Steinfeld
This is the government’s take on the Skinwalkers ranch. This is why they started the ATIP program. It’s really interesting but they do a whole lot of the book is about the paranormal connection to UFOs, UAPs and I don’t know what that is, but it’s a direct connection especially in your life.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Absolutely. Even peer… the the Lars uh, guy, you know, one of the first things he asked me on the bus when we started talking was, why were you in New York? And I I didn’t want to say I was there because I think I got abducted by aliens or anything crazy like that. I was already trying to wrestle with that anyway. And I didn’t want to say that. I just said, oh, I was there to, you know, visit some friends and look into some things. And he threw his head back and said, oh, the extraterrestrials will love that. And I said… Excuse me? I didn’t say anything about extraterrestrials or anything. He’s like, oh, never mind, never mind. And at that point it was like someone snapped a finger and I was gone. I would have followed him off a cliff.
Alan Steinfeld
Was he just so tuned into you? Because there was a soul connection there, I would say that’s like your twin flame, soulmate, if you want to make that up.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
You know… He kissed me. I let a stranger on a bus kiss me. Oh, trust me, that is not me. Like I said, the bus trip down there, I slept with my purse wrapped around my neck, all bunched up in a hole.
Alan Steinfeld
It’s going to New York once and you changed, maybe.
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Oh my god. But yeah, he he said to me at one point, he says, oh, you know, he was asking me about my children and I said, yeah, I have two little boys. And he’s like, it must be so wonderful to have a little piece of you alive and live on, you know, in another in another being and another human being. And I said, yeah, it’s pretty cool. You know, and then at one point he just was looking at me. He pulled my hair up behind my ears, you know, I had long blonde hair then. Well he pulled my hair up behind my ears and he said, you know where I’m from, the women wear their hair like this. And he said, you would look so pretty with it like that. You know I wore my hair pulled back like that for three years afterwards. But that’s when he said, can I kiss you? And I just looked at him and said, yeah. I don’t know why. But it was like lightning bolts. The kiss was like a lightning bolt. Wow. Yeah, I was… and even he after he kissed me, he kind of backed up and he went, wow! Like that, like he’d never kissed another person in his life and I thought I’m not that good but okay. It was just the weirdest stuff.
Alan Steinfeld
That is like a soulmate or twin flame whatever kind of metaphysical language I put, but it definitely wasn’t a coincidence. That was…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
No. Even Rosemary Osnato, the picture of the woman that you showed early, yeah… she she was one of the first ones I told about it and she even admitted to me later that when I told her she’s like… she thought I had just, you know, confabulated the whole story because I was, you know, lonely and wasn’t getting along with my fiancee well or anything like that. She didn’t want to say that, but she felt like that just can’t, that can’t be, that just can’t be. And I’m like, no, it’s real. I’m telling you he’s a real-life person. I’m not trying to say he’s an alien. He is a person. And then Bud found him. I think Bud was actually shocked that he found him because I think Bud was… I think Bud thought like Rosemary like, oh, this poor kid is lost her mind. Oh sorry, that’s just as magical as the UFO experiences you’ve had and all that. But yeah, the paranormal, paranormal is not a good word, but these otherworldly things that are not even UFO related are somehow connected to this phenomenon. What… what is it though? Is it just…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
The only… the only common denominator I found. So I got into the paranormal research on the heavy side. I was a MUFON investigator for 10 years in Indiana on the UFO side, and then I became a paranormal researcher. And then I kind of meshed the two together. The only common denominator I’ve ever been able to put together is the experiencer themselves. There’s something different about the experiencer. And not just with their experiences but in other… the way they look at life and the way their mind thinks. I would almost venture to say there’s something physically different about their brain. There’s something different about the experiences.
Alan Steinfeld
I just read an article… I read an article, I’ll send this to you where they talk about there’s something physically different about experiencer’s brains, actually. There’s a part that’s more developed or something that non-experiencers don’t have. But… but… but it’s the experiencer that you’re saying is open to the multiple dimensional realities. Is that what you’re kind of hinting?
Debra Jordan-Kauble
And I don’t know if they’re… I don’t know if I don’t know if they’re born that way. It’s possible because it because Bud and other researchers have kind of shown that it’s a familial thing, like a generational thing within families. So it’s possible that this is some genetic difference in the way the brain is put together, you know. Or but I often also wonder if, you know, perhaps the experience itself, that initial physical contact, uh, changed something, you know. I I don’t I’m not sure. I’m not a doctor or scientist, so I don’t really know, but I’m just seeing this pattern and I’m seeing it in my own life and in my own family. So…
Alan Steinfeld
Well you know, in my in my book, um, I discover Grant Cameron writes the second chapter and he says nobody sees a UFO by mistake. If you’ve seen it, you were meant to see that. That that is not just being in the right place at the right time. They have targeted you. So do you think that might be true that…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Yes, I believe that that it’s all set up on this higher level of…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
Well I believe the ones that are supposed to see it that see it do. We had this conversation with… my mom and I had this conversation with J. Allen Hynek back in 1984. When mom and I had the sighting of the boomerang-shaped thing come over Indianapolis in April, I think of 84. Bud had given me CUFOS’s phone number and also gave me MUFON’s phone number, but nobody answered the phone when I called MUFON, and I called CUFOS, the Center for UFO Studies because it was just up in Chicago. I called their 24-hour UFO report hotline and Dr. Hynek answered. And…
Alan Steinfeld
That’s amazing because he’s…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
I know. I feel very fortunate. I wish I would have met him in person. I only met him over the phone. We talked on the phone. He interviewed me and my mom. We sent him pictures. He asked us to make drawings of what we saw independently of each other, not together. Right. And then at some point my mom talked to him and I don’t know if it was that night or if it was the next day or so. But he my mom told me that he told her that he of all the years that, you know, he was he was really on the fence, not really a believer in such when he started his research, but by the time he had gotten where he’s at now, he felt that not everyone was able to see these things. Yeah. That was that was the feeling he got, and that was in 1984. Dr. Hynek. So and you you already know he’s seen a million times more things than me or you are ever going to see. So, uh, I thought that was pretty interesting. And here they are finally coming around to it in 2021 and 2020 realizing, you know, that there might be something different.
Alan Steinfeld
Well it is all changing. That’s sort of what I wanted to kind of kind of bring around now towards the end of this interview. What is… there’s something that’s I mean in my opinion, something’s coming online, something’s gearing up, something’s just it seems like we’re heading towards something, we’re closer to something or some event or maybe people always think that, but it feels like something’s coming. Doesn’t it feel that way to you? Or am I just making that up or is it just…
Debra Jordan-Kauble
No, I’ve been I’ve been hearing it for 38 years, you know, something big is coming, something big is coming. And I’ve been saying it myself. But something is different. Humans are different. I feel something different in people. I feel this change in human’s psyche or spirit or whatever, I feel it. I feel it and it’s not a good thing for some folks, but it’s not a bad thing for some folks. I just feel something is about to happen in my lifetime and I’m 62, so you know I ain’t like I’m gonna be around for another 100 years or so, but something is gonna happen that’s gonna change everybody’s paradigm. is about to shift.
Alan Steinfeld
I get chills when you say that, but yeah. It’s coming. I can feel it. I don’t know how to verbalize it. I don’t always have the best words. I’m not a writer. I write like I talk, which is not that great. I’ve been known to butcher the English. You know, you wrote a beautiful book. You wrote a fantastic book that I could not put down. I appreciate that, but I’m just, you know, sometimes I don’t they don’t even make words for the stuff that’s in my head. At least I don’t know. Maybe the COVID thing had something to do with this change, or is that just maybe not incidental because nothing is, but it seems like that, for me, prepares for a unified consciousness, but…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Oh, we’ll get unified, whatever’s left.
Alan Steinfeld
But when you say people are different, how are people different? How is the consciousness different now in the general population, who may know nothing about this, but how is the world different now than it was?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Well, this is my opinion. This is just based on my little slice of the world here in Indiana and the people I meet and things I see, but it seems like people are taking sides. Yeah. They’re either going totally shut down or totally full blast wide open. It’s the chaff is shifting from the wheat. You know what I mean? I don’t know how to… I can see it in my head. I don’t know how to verbalize it, but I just feel that, you know…
Alan Steinfeld
So the people… So we’re given a choice, it sounds like, because I see it.
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Everybody has a choice.
Alan Steinfeld
To be closed and…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Or welcome the unknown.
Alan Steinfeld
Welcome there’s something…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
And you can’t change some things that will happen to you, but you can always choose how to respond. Right. That’s where your choice is. And you’re gonna… people are gonna make this either a good thing or a bad thing based on their choices.
Alan Steinfeld
But it’s a planetary thing, whatever it is.
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Oh, it’s a whole species kind of thing.
Alan Steinfeld
And it’s not the COVID thing, that was a kind of preparation maybe for something.
Debora Jordan-Kauble
You know, I mean, that happens. We’re human… human beings are organic. We’re no different than any other animal on this planet, and plenty of animal species have gone extinct, and we’re not… we are not protected from that, other than that we’re supposed to be a lot smarter than we act, and we could hopefully, you know, get the edge on because of our brain or our smartness, but sometimes that don’t work either.
Alan Steinfeld
But this thing that you’re seeing, because you are a visionary, it’s bigger than that. It is a huge shift to the species as a race of humans. Is that what you’re sensing?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
To me, it’s almost like a jump in… What is the word they use for evolution? It’s a jump.
Alan Steinfeld
Punctuated evolution, yeah, like a…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
It’s not like… like evolution has been like this. Yeah. But this is gonna be a…
Alan Steinfeld
So these two ends come together quickly.
Debora Jordan-Kauble
It’s gonna be a big leap.
Alan Steinfeld
And that’s… Yeah, go ahead, sorry.
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Well, no, that’s… that’s all.
Alan Steinfeld
No, no. You had… was there something… Because is it related to the ET stuff or whatever these things are? I mean, maybe they’re not… Is it…?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
I don’t know that it’s related to them, like they’re interacting for it or anything. I think they’re just watching it. Because it’s interesting to see this happen.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, I feel something like that too. I don’t… it’s not as clear for me, but I get the sense that we’re coming right up to something, and we’re coming to the edge of this thing that will…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Well, and you know what? When the life went berserk back, I don’t know, several years ago, I immediately said, ‘Damn those people need to turn that Hadron Collider off. They don’t know what the hell they’re doing, and they’re gonna screw up my space-time continuum.’ I said, ‘I feel like somebody’s ripped a hole in my timeline, and some crappy garbage bag is leaking this crappy alternative reality all over my world, and you need to stop.’ I think that people have technology beyond our wildest dreams right now, but I don’t think we have the emotional maturity or the wisdom to use it correctly in the long term. And we might be kind of dangerous. We might be like a bunch of monkeys slinging poop all over the universe, and somebody needs to throw a net over us. I don’t know.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, it’s funny. That’s… It’s something like that. That’s great. I’m going to quote you on that, but yeah, it’s something. I’m glad you’re here. You’re writing about it and you’re talking about your work because you feel it’s… I mean, I get the sense it is your mission. You’ve had these experiences for a reason, you survived… And you’re…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
And all I want to do… I don’t have any answers. I speculate… I have all my… is speculation. I mean, I know there… I have solid facts, but beyond those, it’s all just my gut and instance. I feel like my main job here is just to make people wake up. Pay attention. Learn to listen with more than just your ears. Learn to see with more than just your eyes, because you can. Wake up. It’s time to wake up.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. No, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I’m going to show the book again. Here is Extraordinary Contact: Life Beyond Intruders. Debora Jordan-Kauble, and it’s worth getting and worth reading, because, you know, it’s an inside story. A lot of people can analyze, like, the abduction experience, but to be in there and have those experiences along with you as you write about it, and you’re so innocent in a way, the way you write about it. You just kind of come out, ‘This is how it is.’ And you know, there was one picture I wanted to show also where it looks like a crop circle you’re drawing in there. Have you ever… Do you know about the crop circles? Do you know that one that you draw here? Let me see. It’s a sort of… Yeah. What is this? Do you know? Do you remember drawing this?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
I remember, yeah, I remember drawing it, and I remember that I saw that pattern in a dream, and to me, it signified darkness into light.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, it looks… those circles…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Have you seen crop circles? They do a lot of these types of circles.
Alan Steinfeld
There’s a crop… Yeah, there are a lot of crop circles popped up in the late 80s and late 90s that looked similar to some of the drawings and patterns that I had drawn. I’m not the only one. And I pointed it out to Colin Andrews, and he knows about it. And I am not… I’m not the only person on the planet that’s been… that’s drawn these things and then they’ve shown up in crops. Now, I don’t know whether crop circles are man-made or not, but having said that, even if they’re all man-made, someone put that design in that man’s head.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s right. Well, I’ve been there and they… and you do feel a vibration in some of these crop circles. I was in the 8-8-8 crop circle on August 8, 2008, in the form of an 8. This crop… and was in the center, and I definitely felt the kundalini activation in that crop circle. So I think it’s great. So your experiences, though, Deb, are not finished, right? You’re… they… you… Right? I mean…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
My experiences have kind of morphed over the years. They’re less physical and more metaphysical. I mean, right now I’m having like the… the little daytime daydream or whatever that was when I was talking to the little bubble, you know, in lucid dreams. And things like that.
Alan Steinfeld
Maybe going somewhere else when I’m asleep and remembering, you know, speaking to somebody. So it’s changed from the actual physical stuff where, you know, scooped out my leg and burned up my eyes and burned up my backyard to stuff going on up in here, and on some other level psychically, I guess, and, you know…
Alan Steinfeld
Well, it seems like it’s because you’ve evolved. You’ve opened up that and that…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
I allowed… That’s because I let it. You know, and that was a choice that I made. I made a choice to have faith in it and trust in myself. You know, I had faith in my own instincts and trust in my own instincts. And all those years of me telling myself, ‘It’s okay, you’re still alive. You’re still here. Everything is all right.’ You know, the universe is not gonna… It’s always going to provide you what you need. Just let it. Listen. So, and it… and it’s worked. It has. And you’re looking better and sounding better, and you’re clearer and more integrated. So something… something good. I mean, just imagine what your life would be like if this never happened to you.
Debora Jordan-Kauble
I can’t even… People have said to me, ‘Would you… would you want this to not go away?’ Because in the beginning, yeah, if you’d asked me that when I was 23, I would have been like, ‘Yeah!’ But now, it’s like, there’s nothing about my life that would be remotely recognizable had it not happened to me. I wouldn’t be… Nothing. I don’t know where I’d be right now or what I’d be doing.
Alan Steinfeld
It’s so strange to consider because everyone around you in Indiana is probably like who you could have been, right?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Dude, I don’t know. It’s… Yeah, I just doing their life. And I’m so very grateful every single day of my life, I wake up and the first thing I say is, ‘Thank you. Thank you for this life and whatever I need to do today, figure out some way to make me do it.’
Alan Steinfeld
Well, thank you for, you know, not being afraid to share who you are and… I don’t know, it’s inspiring for me. It gives me… It’s like, there is another reality. I always knew it, and there’s this person who had first-hand experiences. So, well, let us know if the next time a paranormal adventure happens to you.
Debora Jordan-Kauble
I will.
Alan Steinfeld
And thanks, and I’ll talk to Linda sometimes. I’ll tell her I talked to you and…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Tell her I said hi.
Alan Steinfeld
I will. She has a chapter in that book, actually, that I wrote.
Debora Jordan-Kauble
I saw that. Yeah, I’m looking forward to reading the rest of them. Like I said, I’ve gotten started on it and I read yours.
Alan Steinfeld
I think you’ll like John Mack’s chapter because he… Did you ever meet John?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
I met him a couple of times. Bud introduced me to him, and I met him at conferences, but I did not, unfortunately, get an opportunity to really get to know him or work any with him at all. And I was very sad about that because I think he was amazing.
Alan Steinfeld
He was amazing, and he makes… he sort of says what you’re saying, ‘There’s a whole other reality that we have to start to get used to.’ And he wasn’t an experiencer, but he talked to a lot, and he could not deny this happened to him. So he had to make sense of it, and the sense is that there’s another reality that we’re just not aware of. We’re not programmed to see. We’re so, you know, conditioned to…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
I always said human brains are tube-type radios in an Adobe digital surround sound world, and we can only pick up one tiny sliver of one signal. Like I’m sitting in this room right now, and I’ve got Wi-Fi signals, television signals, radio signals, all kinds of stuff flying through me, through my body right now, but I’m completely oblivious to it because my brain isn’t wired to pick that up. There are all kinds of life going on all around us all the time, but we are oblivious to it because we’re not made to perceive it, therefore we can’t receive it. And I feel like something is changing in human brains, and some people can. And I see things every now and then that I, you know… And it makes me wonder about some of the people that are in mental institutions. Who’s to say that they just, you know, their filters are clogged up or something, but, you know, so they’re seeing stuff that we don’t normally see. But, you know what I mean?
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, no, I do. Because you’re not trained to see it.
Debora Jordan-Kauble
No, but people gotta… I think if people can really realize that it’s there, then they’ll make an effort to change the way they think, and that’ll start the process so that they’ll be able to see it too.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. I think that’s really key. I’m working on an abduction case that I think will be a breakthrough case, a story of somebody that I know. And yeah, if we… what you just said, I think is really key. If we’re trained to see it, then other people will start seeing it. It’s like that gorilla video with the people playing basketball. Have you ever seen that one?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Oh, I just gave away the punchline.
Alan Steinfeld
But anyway… I say to people, ‘Just count the number of passes in this little video,’ and they do, and they’re so focused on it, and in the middle of that video, there’s a guy in a gorilla suit walking across the basketball court, and nobody sees it because they’re counting the balls that are being passed.
Debora Jordan-Kauble
They’re doing what you told them to do and that’s what they’re focused on.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s… and this is what we have…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
So I’m changing the message. I’m telling you to focus elsewhere for a minute, and you’re gonna be surprised at what you see.
Alan Steinfeld
Exactly. Thanks. Yes, that’s right. Well, it’s been really fun. I enjoy your sense of humor and your… and just your freshness, honesty, just yourself, you know?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah. Yeah, and if you like the book, you just let me know what you think of my book, and…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
All right, I definitely will.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, and who published your book? Who’s the publisher of that?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
August Night Press.
Alan Steinfeld
And it’s… and people can just buy it on Amazon?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Amazon, Books-A-Million, any online bookseller, basically. And it’s also available, I think on Kindle as well.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, it is. I got the Kindle version, or I got… no, I got the piece, yeah.
Debora Jordan-Kauble
You can… so Amazon or anywhere like that. And you can also visit my website. I think my husband has links to where you can get it on that as well.
Alan Steinfeld
What’s the website?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
It’s DebsHome.com. D-E-B-S-H-O-M-E.com. Debshome.com.
Alan Steinfeld
Great. And are you writing anything? Are you working on anything now? Are you working on anything…?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Right now I’m trying to just work through some personal stuff going on here, getting everything situated. I just recently retired, so we’re getting, you know, getting our life reorganized for retirement. And then I’m making notes and keeping tabs on every little thing, and I’m probably going to put together more stuff, hopefully another book in the next year or so. Plus putting… I want to put more content on my website as well. I just got a new computer with a camera and everything on it so I can do some video blogs and, you know, stuff like that.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, do a vlog. If you get a download or a message or have an experience, it would be great to do a fresh vlog of that. And do you want to come to conferences? Should I mention your name to some of the…?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Sure. Yeah, I’m open to that. I mean, I’m past the point of… I don’t care what people think of me anymore. I used to be nervous, and you know, I don’t care anymore. But yeah, conferences would be great because I love to meet other people like me, and they go to those conferences, so that’s where I get to meet them all.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, yeah, there are some good ones. Contact in the Desert, it didn’t happen for the last two years, but that was a big one. And there…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
I’ve never been to that one.
Alan Steinfeld
I’ll mention your name to that one, and that would be good. So, yeah, I just wanted to say one more thing about Bud. It’s too bad he kind of got… I think he sided with David Jacobs a little bit about the negative ETs, and he kind of missed the what happened to you in a sense. The kind of evolution and awakening of consciousness that he… I don’t think he understood that, maybe, or something, right?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
I think near the end of his life he did, you know, and um… For me, and but even when he didn’t really always agree with what my thoughts or perceptions were, he was still supportive and kind with me. You know, just like any good parent would be. He just kind of let me go on my own way. But yeah, I felt like he was a father figure to me in a lot of ways. So…
Alan Steinfeld
Well, without him, I mean, that was amazing what he did in the book, going and visiting you and confirming. I mean, he was a pioneer.
Debora Jordan-Kauble
He spent three years of his life and all of his own money and time away from his family for to help me and my family. And sometimes I think he saved my life.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, he put it in perspective. And I would say he’s the godfather of the UFO abduction experience.
Debora Jordan-Kauble
And I’m so fortunate and blessed to have had so much time with him. You know, early on in the beginning. And I had support from family and friends and coworkers and workers and bosses and stuff that other people like me don’t have. So part of this is me paying that forward too. I want to give that to other people.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. And that book that Bud wrote about Deb is… is this one… this is the paperback version, Intruders: The Incredible Visitations at Copley Woods. Copley Woods is a name he made up, right?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
Yeah, that’s a pseudonym for an area in Indianapolis. The suburb.
Alan Steinfeld
He calls you Kathie Davis because you weren’t sure about using your real name. That was one of the stipulations that me and the family… when we all agreed to finally let him write a book, which we weren’t on board with at first. One of them was that we needed to use pseudonyms because we just wanted to protect ourselves and our children from, you know…
Alan Steinfeld
But when did you decide you didn’t need that pseudonym anymore?
Debora Jordan-Kauble
After when my sister and I first started going out in public and then we wrote the first little, like, two… We wrote a small book between the two of us called Abducted: The Story of the Intruders Continues, or something like that. And I felt like if I’m gonna speak about my experience out here in public all on my own now without Bud, I need to put my name to it and own it, otherwise I feel like I don’t… I don’t feel that, you know, it’s credible. If I’m not… If I’m going to tell my story and I’m not even going to use my real name, why would anybody believe me? I wouldn’t think that was good, so I wanted to own what I was about to tell people so they could understand this is important enough that I put my name on it. I’m not hiding behind a pseudonym anymore. My children were older and we had things under control.
Alan Steinfeld
And your sister had experiences too, right? She was…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
My older sister did, yeah.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. Well, thank you again for spending some time here with me and everyone watching, and…
Debora Jordan-Kauble
I appreciate the invitation and I’m grateful. Thank you.