New Realities recorded on February 28, 2017
Summary
Alan Steinfeld interviews Tom Kenyon about the evolution of consciousness, his experiences channeling the Hathors, and the intersection of neuropsychology and spirituality. Kenyon discusses his early spontaneous samadhi, his exploration of various mystical traditions, and how he integrates these experiences with his scientific background. He explains how altered states of consciousness, such as appreciation and gratitude, can positively affect brain function and help individuals access higher dimensions. They also touch upon the dangers of blindly following spiritual gurus, the importance of maintaining a strong ego structure while exploring higher realms, and the current state of global challenges, emphasizing individual transformation as the key to collective evolution.
Transcript
Alan Steinfeld
Welcome to New Realities. I’m Alan Steinfeld, and this program is about the evolution of our consciousness. I feel we’re coming into a time where different levels of our humanity are awakening, and tonight’s guest is very much a part of that awakening. I’m talking to Tom Kenyon. He’s a channel for the Hathors, and he has an understanding, I feel, of this movement of thought, of being, of evolution. That’s what I feel you have a really great perspective on, some of the conversations we’ve had. You’re a channel and you have a great mind, which I like about you. You’re very practical, and yet something is happening to you that seems almost unexplainable, inexplicable. Do you have a handle on both those worlds? You’re a rational person in the world, and something else is going on. How do you integrate those two parts of yourself?
Tom Kenyon
Well, I reference my early experience when I was 18. I had a spontaneous samadhi on my uncle’s farm. I was a white boy from Virginia living in North Carolina for the summer, and I had no context for this. I entered a state of consciousness in which the world completely disappeared, and I had no thought. I was aware of consciousness aware of itself, which in the Hindu tradition is called Satcitananda. That arose spontaneously, and I thought a very short time had passed, but the sun was very low in the sky when I finally opened my eyes, and these cows had wandered over and were looking at me. That pivotal experience drove me to try to find out what happened because it was so out of context for the rest of my life.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah.
Tom Kenyon
So I went into the mystical traditions of Christianity and explored Saint Francis of Assisi and Meister Eckhart and Saint Teresa of Avila and all the various mystics. I was practicing those meditations. Then I went into Eastern philosophy and Taoism and Tibetan Buddhism and the Vedas. That all came together, but there was still something missing. The missing piece for me was neuropsychology. So when I brought that in, I had an understanding that seems antithetical. We don’t think of mysticism and spirituality as being compatible with science, but there’s a place where they nest together, and that’s what’s interesting.
Alan Steinfeld
And they have to nest together because I think what that work is very important for what we’re all doing here. How do they fit? The neuropsychology, the mysticism, and the practical understanding of brain psychology?
Tom Kenyon
Right now you and I are having a conversation, and although we’re not hooked up to an EEG machine or an MRI scanner, we know that the language centers in the left side are very active. Those who are watching this and making sense of our language are having similar activity. There’s a lot of activity going on in the left hemisphere. The spiritual experiences, there’s an activation of the right hemisphere, and other areas of the brain also get involved. The brain shifts, literally its neurological patterning in these mystical, spiritual experiences. So there’s a direct relationship between what we perceive and what’s going on in the brain. But then for me, there’s another layer that’s the most interesting, which is the transcendence of brain function. What happens in states of consciousness like remote viewing and near-death experiences where the brain is not taking in information? There is no processing, but in near-death experiences people report afterwards in detail what people were talking about.
Alan Steinfeld
So what do you make of that then?
Tom Kenyon
There is a non-localized aspect of consciousness, and various perennial philosophies talk about it. There’s a part of us localized right now; I’m responding to you in this studio in Manhattan. But there’s another aspect of you and me, and everyone watching, that’s non-localized, that has access to information beyond our nervous systems. That’s what I find interesting. I use the lens of ironically neuropsychology and quantum physics to go beyond those templates.
Alan Steinfeld
No, I know what you’re saying, and that’s why those electronic coin tosses where world events seem to work. The Roger Nelson stuff at Princeton. Because we’re emanating a field that’s beyond the language we have yet to develop culturally. So what we’re trying to formulate, I think in this new age, whatever we want to call it, that’s such a bad name, but in the new level of consciousness, there’s something else that you’re mentioning that is going on that needs to be languaged and acknowledged as a valid human experience. Right now the culture is split between those intellectuals who don’t believe anything spiritual is happening or the spiritual woo-woos that don’t think intellectual science matters. We’re making the bridge.
Tom Kenyon
Well Saint Loyola said that we must have faith without reason, and I disagree. I think we have to have both. For me, those who are on the extremes of the new age, who are into whatever they are into, it could be crystals have the power, or this latest device created by someone has the power, and they put all their faith in it and they won’t look at anything that questions the methodology or the belief systems. They just won’t pay attention. I think that’s dangerous. That leads into fanaticism. I really wonder what happened for those who bought the Mayan end of the world in 2012. What happened on December 22nd?
Alan Steinfeld
I never bought that. That’s one thing I didn’t buy.
Tom Kenyon
But this has happened before. Historically we know that in the first century AD in Europe, there was a strong belief that as the calendar hit the first year, the world was coming to an end. People got up and left their homes and went on pilgrimages because they knew the world was going to come to an end. Well, we’re 2,000 years later and they were wrong. So this type of thing rises again and again.
Alan Steinfeld
It does. Because it’s based on belief, and we know belief doesn’t mean anything. It’s just mental conditioning. But you’re in a very curious place because you are accessing a realm of consciousness that some people would equate to that sort of follow blindly faith. How do you keep a leash or a handle on what’s coming to you in your awareness? I’m just curious about your process. How do you know what’s not you, what’s coming out of your ego-generated mind, which everyone has, and what transcends that? Is there a code or some identification with the Hathors?
Tom Kenyon
It’s a quality of feeling that I identify. It’s related to a heart vibration that has the characteristic of love and a deep gratitude, but also intelligence simultaneously. So it’s not just a sea of love and gratitude, there’s also intelligence about it. So the Hathors are very practical also. So for me, I can accommodate this. Let me tell you a story that happened when I was in my 20s. I went to see a swami by the name of Nityananda. He was a very powerful being, and I was new to this stuff. I went with a friend of mine, and we drove in my old Ford that I called Big Red. We had a radio, and we would cross the panhandle of Texas because this guy was in Texas at the edge, a little small town. At three o’clock in the morning, the radio station would pick up things from Kansas, Canada, New York, California. It was all this jumble, Bible-toting hellfire damnation, people selling sex and rock and roll. It was all these channels were emerging, and you’d have to take the tuner because it was an old analog tuner to find the exact channel that you wanted to listen to. I think that’s what happens to us as human beings. In our brains, we have the pineal gland, which is a crystalline structure. There’s actually a crystal structure that the cell biologist Bruce Lipton has mentioned has the capacity to be like an antenna. That’s my experience as well. All human beings are receiving information from multiple layers of themselves, the culture, the cosmos, and it’s like that three o’clock radio. You have to fine-tune it. So for me, the task is how do I accommodate the art of tuning my brain so that I get something that is of value and has truth to it, the signature of truth. It’s an internal brain skill. I believe that every human being is channeling.
Alan Steinfeld
We’re channeling ourselves. You know, we’re channeling on many levels.
Tom Kenyon
Many levels. Right. So the question can be answered biologically, for me, through the metaphor of a tree. Many trees have deep taproots. It anchors the tree, going down deep into the earth. It’s the deepest root. Then there are these other roots that are in the surface that are drawing nutrients. But the taproot anchors the tree. So for me, in that metaphor, we all have taproots that go into our authentic spiritual nature. Then we have these other roots that are closer to the surface that are drawing in from our culture, our religions, our spiritual dogmas, all of our personal experiences. So the tree of our nature has this surface information and personalities, and we also have a taproot. What my interest is in is going to the taproot and authentic spiritual experiences and how that can transform us versus counterfeit.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, and I do want to talk about the counterfeit experience because it’s all over the place, including religions. But before we get there, I want to know… so this feeling of love comes in, this higher feeling, you feel uplifted when you’re meeting with the Hathors or they’re coming through. How do you know that’s not an aspect of you and who are you anyway? Are you Tom Kenyon? You’re another frequency, another branch, another root in that, like me. But when you remove that part of your personality, you are accessing another branch. But how do you know that’s not you? I mean, the Hathors.
Tom Kenyon
Well, I have a long history with them. At the beginning, when they first appeared to me when I was having a meditation retreat, just by myself, I was doing Siddha Yoga, and two appeared to me psychically. So we’re not talking about physically manifesting, but vividly psychically there. And I could see them.
Alan Steinfeld
You could see them, and you didn’t think you were crazy though. Because other people see things and they are crazy. This wasn’t a hallucination, it was a psychic impression. And you knew it, because a lot of people don’t trust that.
Tom Kenyon
Well, at this point, I had been involved in brain research for ten years through acoustic brain research. I had worked with a lot of researchers, so I had absorbed like a sponge their knowledge and information. So I had some understanding about this interface between psychology, neurology, and spirituality. So when they appeared, I recognized it was a clairvoyant experience, not a visual hallucination. And so then, in the course of my many years with them, I tested them constantly.
Alan Steinfeld
How did you know it was real? I believe it was. I’m not doubting that, but how did you know it wasn’t a hallucination and there’s a substantial awareness in your environment? How do we know, especially for some people who maybe don’t have a strong ego structure? But we’ll get into that later. But how did you know?
Tom Kenyon
Well, for me, I questioned my sanity. I was working as a psychotherapist. First thing went up in my mind, the red flag, am I having a psychotic experience? Go through the checklist. No, you’re not. You’re having a clairvoyant experience, which is different than a visual hallucination. Okay, we can let that one go. But still, I questioned. They gave me a body of information they called the geometry of consciousness, which were movements of patterns within the brain they said would improve brain performance. They instructed me in it, and I had been working with the brain for ten years through acoustic brain research, so I recognized there were changes taking place in my own neurology that were fundamentally profound. They gave me this information. I did not believe who they said they were. So I put them in this box: delusional. And so then I looked at them as archetypes. They say they’re independent of me, but they’re not. So then they asked me to, after I went through these three exercises for several months, and they said, ‘You recognize that your brain has changed, right?’ I said yes. They talked to me telepathically, not an auditory hallucination. And they said, ‘What do you think about it?’ I said, ‘Well, I think it’s very profound, but I’m not sure about affecting other people.’ And they said, ‘Well, if you taught it to other people, they would experience improvements in brain function, performance, and access to other dimensions of consciousness.’ So I said, ‘Okay, this is still bullshit, but it’s interesting. So then I think I’m going to test it.’
Alan Steinfeld
You thought it was coming from you, that’s why.
Tom Kenyon
That’s it, I thought it was coming from me. So then I formed three beta test groups in the state of Washington and went to three different cities where people didn’t know each other. I gave a free course where I taught these geometries over the course of four weeks.
Alan Steinfeld
What do you mean by the geometries? There were certain…
Tom Kenyon
There are three exercises they gave me that involved geometry that a person would do inside in a meditation.
Alan Steinfeld
Like an internal geometry.
Tom Kenyon
Internal geometry. They would visualize these internal geometries. And there were three meditations based on geometry. And so I taught these to these three different cities. And what was fascinating was everyone experienced radical changes in brain performance, creativity. I’ll never forget there was a professor of art who was the dean of the art school, and he was asked to make a contribution to an exhibit. He was in an absolute terror because he had lost his creative juices and he was in a dead zone. He took this class, and he reported that after doing these exercises, he suddenly was inspired and had his creativity back. And so I’ll never forget the last class at the last city, and somebody said, ‘This has changed my life. How did you come up with this?’ And I said, ‘The Hathors are a group of beings that…’ And this woman crossed her arms and glared at me. A couple of people said this is the work of the devil. But they couldn’t deny that it had improved their brain performance, it changed their lives.
Alan Steinfeld
Are you still doing these geometries or is it still…
Tom Kenyon
It’s in a book. Now it’s in a book called The Hathor Material. So people can access it.
Alan Steinfeld
And then you had these other experiences.
Tom Kenyon
Yes, I’ve had a personal history over many decades now that tell me they have an external reality to me. I remember I was once in California teaching, and they asked me to write a book. And I said, ‘There’s no freaking way I’m going to put my treasured letters that I worked so hard for after my name on a book about you guys who say you’re from another universe.’
Alan Steinfeld
Well, you really talk back to them, huh?
Tom Kenyon
Yes, I’m irreverent. And they have a wonderful sense of humor. So they said okay. I went to California, to San Francisco to give a workshop a few months later. A woman came up to me and said, ‘You know, I wish you would write that book the Hathors asked you to write because they keep bothering me in meditation.’ The Hathors are bothering her. And I had never met this woman before. So many, many things, we could take the whole time we have to talk about the personal history. So I have enough personal history that my skepticism, which I think is important to have when you enter altered states of consciousness, is in a place of neutrality. I believe beings definitely exist beyond us in a non-physical realm, and I believe that the brain, mind, whatever, is capable of accessing those realms. We’ve really put a limit on what we’re capable of as human beings. Psychology has locked us into thinking everything’s a manifestation of some psychological projection, and that’s really been in the way of our evolution. So I think what you’re doing is bridging a cultural gap that needs to be looked at. But there’s the other side too that we talked about, that dark side where people are hallucinating. They are making it up, and they think it’s real. With your material, it was proven by people that, yeah, this is functional, this is helpful. But what do you say to those other people? I mean, not that we’re here to judge other people, but what do you say? How does someone know the difference? How would you?
Tom Kenyon
Let me ask you a question. Out of the files of psychotherapy where I worked with people who were delusional, which archetype would interest you most to explore for a few moments? Either the archetype of King Arthur or the archetype of the Virgin Mary. I want to talk about my encounters with a delusional person. One was operating as Mary, the mother of Jesus. She thought she was. She actually thought they were, and maybe she was channeling it.
Alan Steinfeld
Let’s go to Mary, because so many people think they are.
Tom Kenyon
Mea culpa, mea culpa. My mother was Catholic, and she was named Delarosa, which means sorrow in Portuguese. Poor woman. That is a thought form to live through. The template is that we’re guilty, guilty. Mea culpa means my fault, my fault, my most grievous fault. We do have to get over that as a culture on so many levels. But returning to this client, I got a phone call from an associate in California. I had worked at his institute. I had co-taught with him. He called me from California. I was in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. This is when I was doing the brain research. He said, ‘You see a student of mine who had a psychotic break?’ She had attended one of his five-day intensives. She had a psychotic break at the end of it, and her husband said that if this wasn’t resolved, he was going to sue this guy and his institute. I said, ‘Where do they live?’ They live in Florida. They’re willing to come up to Chapel Hill. My schedule is really busy, but I can see them over the weekend. So they came up. I had a functioning practice as a psychotherapist there. In walks this couple. So what had happened for her was that she went through this five-day intensive, which was the use of sound, profound spiritual meditations, and brain-altering technologies. On the fourth day, she started to experience herself as the Virgin Mary, and no longer Midge. Not her real name. On the fifth day, Midge completely disappeared as a reference point. She was the Virgin Mary, the Madonna. She was walking through the campus feeling herself as Madonna and emanating this energy that people are responding to.
Alan Steinfeld
And she really is emanating that.
Tom Kenyon
Yeah. She is emanating something that is so strong that people are coming up and asking for her blessings. And she’s blessing and healing people emotionally, people are sobbing. So couldn’t she have been the embodiment of that Madonna? At that moment, I believe she was, but let’s get to the two threads that run together: psychosis and authentic spirituality. Because this is the territory where the hot spot is. She was truly in a state of bliss and love, agape, divine love, emanating this, and feeling nested in this archetype, the divine loving feminine. She goes to the airport in this feeling that she’s the Madonna. She’s waiting for her plane. She’s looking at magazines and she sees on the front page her name, Madonna. So she buys it. But this is a different Madonna. This is Madonna the rock star. So suddenly, because she had no ego strength, and we’ll get to why she didn’t have that… I think that’s really important. You need to have a strong ego in order to do the work you’re doing. And if you don’t, you get spiraled out. So she is reading about Madonna the rock star and shifts her identity. It’s like a revolving door and goes into a different frequency domain, and she’s no longer Madonna the mother of Jesus; she’s Madonna the rock star traveling incognito, she even has her sunglasses. So she becomes Madonna. She’s taking her high heel and trying to break the glass at 30,000 feet because there are demons on the wings. She’s having physical hallucinations. She sees them. This is one of the signatures of psychosis. The context was, you don’t take your high heel shoes off and try to break the glass of a plane at 30,000 feet. So the stewardesses came in and restrained her, and when they landed, she was taken to a mental hospital and given antipsychotic medication. After a few days, she came out of that because the brain chemistry changed. She was not perceiving herself as the archetype. She was Midge again, although damaged and fragile. So she went home, and then her husband and she comes up to see me. So I go through the history, and one of the things that happened, which she confessed to her husband—and the first time he had ever heard of this—was that 10 years earlier, she and his family had a furniture store, and she hated it. She hated her family actually, his family, and hated having to work there in the store. And one night, she snuck into the store and burned it to the ground. That’s not good. She did that just because she hated it. She did not have the psychological strength or the courage to say, ‘I’m not going to do this anymore.’ She took the coward’s way and burned that business down. And they didn’t rebuild, so she carried this dark secret with her. And guilt. That was like a poisonous seed in her psychology, which made her self-identity fragile. So looking back at the whole experience, I think what happened was when she had that moment where she became agape through the feminine archetype of the Virgin Mary, she was having an authentic spiritual experience and she was emanating these energies, and people were responding and having openings, but then she flipped into another aspect, a lower vibratory field, and then she became psychotic. This is one thing that needs to really be addressed in the personal growth movement with gurus or anyone who claims to be an authority. People leverage power and give them their power. Be clear who you’re giving your power to, because a person can operate within an authentic spiritual energy, and I’ve seen this many times, and then they have a personality quirk that can come in and snap.
Alan Steinfeld
You have to call people on their stuff. There’s the spiritual teaching and there’s the person. I just interviewed Amrit Desai, and we got into that whole thing that he got involved with, where he said everyone should be celibate in the ashram, and yet he was having sex with his disciples. He said, ‘Well, I was the first guru to admit that.’ But I said, ‘So what? It affected people.’ I feel he wasn’t really taking that kind of responsibility.
Tom Kenyon
I think the point you made is this idea of the strong ego base. You know who you are as Tom, which might be good and bad. It’s a lovely human person there, but we get attached to the personality structures and they become solidified and stuck, which don’t allow our evolution. I’m just talking about myself. You have that as a base to access these realms, but how do we stay fluid in the ego personality structure, know it’s there, and yet be open for the transcendent experience? Will you ever allow yourself to completely dissolve and become the Hathors, emanate them, embody them?
Alan Steinfeld
I have no need to become the Hathors, nor desire to become them. Be the emanation of, maybe not the Hathors, but be the emanation of Tom Kenyon in that loving emanation.
Tom Kenyon
I’m learning to be more myself every day. But the term the ego structure for me is problematic because if we think of structure, we think of something that’s solid, it’s locked in. I think that the ego can become that way, but I don’t think it’s in its nature to be a structure. It’s more of a reference point. I know that I’m sitting in this chair talking to you. If I went into one of these states and I could be aware of other realms, I will still be in touch with this me as a reference point. And I can be fluid and move through different realms, but I’m always aware that I’m right here.
Alan Steinfeld
I think that’s the key right there. Which wasn’t the key to the woman trying to bang on the window of the airplane, or a lot of people that come in and believe they’re the emanations of God or they’re channeling God or whatever. It’s still a very slippery slope.
Tom Kenyon
The archetypes are seductive if you don’t have your own life. Because they’re so large, they’re larger than life. One can step into the energy of the archetype, ‘I am Isis,’ or ‘I am Zeus,’ or ‘I am whatever,’ and the power is so strong. What happens in my experience is some people, when their own personal self-identity is so weak, and they don’t have enough self-esteem or a solid reference point, they can live the heroic life of the archetype. But the problem is they then are not living the life as a human being.
Alan Steinfeld
Isn’t our job or mission at this point in our collective evolution to become the embodiment of the divine emanations, to slowly let go of the personality structures, what I think ascension is a word that’s thrown about, but I think to embody that divinity is why we’re here? But still keep a foot in the real world.
Tom Kenyon
What that wise Zen Master said, ‘First step into heaven, first step on earth.’ You have to have a solid something firm because if you go into the higher vibrational fields, this is just my experience, you can fall. Like Icarus who flew too close to the sun.
Alan Steinfeld
So we need a foot in both worlds. But I think we’re evolving to a place maybe where, not that we’re transhuman, but there’s higher ideals will be something that the human psychology won’t be pulled back down to. The pettiness, the wars, the… or maybe that will always be here, I don’t know. I’m hoping we are transcending these lower realms.
Tom Kenyon
I think collectively we are in a morphogenetic field that is morphing, transforming into something unknown. And I think its final expression is going to be many expressions, and some of it will be perhaps more people will be loving, but we’re moving through a phase where some people are getting very selfish and mean-spirited and violent. Right now at this moment in time, Islam is being commandeered by fundamentalists. And right now there are ancient sites that are being destroyed. It’s horrible, it’s awful. So that is not an expression of loving embracing. So I don’t personally feel that we are collectively moving to this. It’s a potential, it’s a possibility, but if I were to put my money down where my mouth speaks, I don’t think I would put it there. I think it’s more complex. The human experience and our evolution is more complex than that.
Alan Steinfeld
But what do the Hathors say about that? Here they are coming to you and probably a lot of people to lift the vibration out of that fundamentalist belief. How do they talk about this situation that’s going on?
Tom Kenyon
They say that things can change at the 11th hour. At the last minute of the 11th hour human consciousness can go boom. It can, but their focus is on the individual because they say that the seed for the group transformation lies within the individual. So all their messages, for the most part, are about how do you, the individual, move to a higher vibrational field emotionally, but remain intelligent and practical at the same time. They keep coming back to appreciation and gratitude as a vibrational field that will increase intelligence and allow one to access higher dimensional information and be more creative. Interestingly enough, there’s research going on, HeartMath Institute has been looking at this, and other researchers as well, that when we enter a state of appreciation, the magnetic fields emanating from the heart go up and affect the brain. So literally our brain physiology, how our brain is putting together neurological networks, is affected by what we are feeling. We know that the limbic part of the brain is where emotions actually originate from, but the heart creates complex electromagnetic fields that affect the brain. So the research shows that when we enter a state of appreciation, we become more effective and more creative. So that’s how the Hathors are talking about it.
Alan Steinfeld
We also emanate a field. So our field, I mean, how are we going to stop the fundamentalists? Yeah, we’re all evolving, but what about will, do they talk about the field effect in a sense of protecting? Will the Earth survive this assault of negativity going on globally right now?
Tom Kenyon
We have a lot going on, there’s the 100,000 refugees flooding into Europe, it’s a major Earth challenge. And with climate change, it’s been predicted because of the loss of water and agriculture, that’s just the first wave. It’s going to be a very complex situation. We’re just seeing the beginning of it. The Hathors say don’t be overwhelmed by what you see externally. Always go back to a place of intelligent living, pragmatism, appreciation, and gratitude, and the more of you are in that state, the greater the collective field. I can’t argue with them about that.
Alan Steinfeld
I like that. I can only work from this place outward. If I have resourcing, I can argue with the Hathors, I appreciate that. I like what they’re saying about that because their job is to work with each person to evolve their state that will have that 11th-hour effect.
Tom Kenyon
Right. And they say that when enough of us shift, the collective will shift, there’ll be a collective field effect. So they don’t come in to work collectively, they work with information for the individual but with an eye towards the collective.
Alan Steinfeld
Do they see a time, as a possible future, where the Earth lives in peace in a utopia? Do they see that?
Tom Kenyon
Yes, it is a possibility, but we’re right here at the final hour working our way towards that. That’s one way of looking at it, but I personally think that life is much more complex and its evolutionary path than we reach a utopia and everything is wonderful. I think there will always be conflicts and disagreements, there will always be conflicting energies because we live in a dualistic universe. One of the things I do appreciate that the Hathors have said, of the many things, is their perspective is as human beings, we are spiritual beings having a human experience. And what the value of this life is, is moving through the difficulties we cultivate higher qualities in ourselves and we take those with us vibrationally to our different expressions after this life. And that’s our evolution. That’s what we do each lifetime, hopefully. And this lifetime is a blink in the cosmic flow.
Alan Steinfeld
But for right now, we’re not blinking. What’s your spiritual practice? You’re channeling this thing, you’re getting out of the way, and there’s beautiful energy. But you, how do you increase that loving feeling from day to day in the real world? How do you emanate that?
Tom Kenyon
It varies from day to day and it has to do with my mood, quite frankly, and what has come down. There are times when the moods are so strong that the loving vibration, the appreciation gets lost, and it sucks. And so then I have to remind myself, I have a choice. I reference quantum mechanics. I don’t want to get into the weeds, but the whole observer effect. This is physics, not new age thinking. A physicist sets up an experiment to look at subatomic reality, looks for a wave, sees a wave. Another physicist looks for a particle, gets a particle. So intention determines how an event arises. When a mood takes over, I basically step back and observe the mood without trying to fix it. If you just observe a state of consciousness in your own mind long enough, it will change. Because physics tells us this. If you observe something, the act of observation changes it. So when I have a really crappy mood, I’ll step out and say, ‘Okay, I’m just going to watch it. I’m not going to try to fix it or send love.’
Alan Steinfeld
That’s Buddhist detachment. Dzogchen. It’s the great perfection of observing without adding energy to change. If you want to change it, it’s stuck there. So you just observe it and it passes.
Tom Kenyon
Because any mental state is neurological patterning. It requires an expenditure of biological energy to maintain a mood. If you observe it and you withdraw from trying to change it, there’s an entropic decay of the neural network holding the mood, and the mood will spontaneously collapse and something else will arise. For me, that usually gives rise to a more expansive state of consciousness.
Alan Steinfeld
So it’s not easy going to higher fields if you still have that personality holding onto stuff. My issue with those of us in the personal growth movement who want only what is wonderful and loving, and don’t deal with the lower vibratory fields in their own nature, they act out without their knowledge, or they become passive-aggressive to others. The spiritual community is full of vipers and the acting out of passive-aggressiveness. Because they’re not willing to deal with the shadow, their bad mood. If they have a bad mood, they’ll just say everything’s great without actually going in and acknowledging what they’re feeling bad about.
Tom Kenyon
Part of that has to do with how our spiritual traditions and our religions have failed us. The bulk of them say the heavenly worlds are all you want to be in, and forget this is an illusion.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s garbage.
Tom Kenyon
Those who embrace that deny their lower expressions because there’s guilt and shame about having something that doesn’t fit into how they think they’re supposed to be to be a good Buddhist or a good Catholic. There’s a lot of Eastern traditions also that have a lack of dealing with that dark side. That leads to the guru. In many of the traditions, the guru is to be worshiped. The guru is your link to the lineage, and the lineage energy flows to you. In my experience, that’s absolutely correct. However, there’s no discrimination between the guru and the person. When the guru is out of the way, he or she can be a conduit for the lineage that can go back thousands of years. But they also have their personality. So a student or chela gives away their power to the guru. If they’ve done that, they don’t have any discrimination in the moment when the guru is getting an ego feed. Yes, they take it all as the transmission. It’s confusing for the student, and they think it’s an honor to be chosen by the guru to be seduced or have their power subverted or bank account manipulated. It’s a fundamental lack of psychological insight and a lack of ego strength on the student’s part. So we have to hold both. Let the transmission occur if you are in a tradition, but at the same time, when that person asks to borrow your car and crashes it, they should pay for the damage. They shouldn’t say it was your karma. They say it’s crazy wisdom. Crazy wisdom is a great defense mechanism for assholes who have power. You can always say, ‘I’m testing your non-attachment.’
Alan Steinfeld
Having relationships with your teacher is probably a bad idea on so many levels. The teacher should stay in a place of transmission without becoming in an intimate relationship.
Tom Kenyon
There are many scandals in India about that. Sai Baba. But even in the church, you see that abuse. So I saw this guy who had this awakening, he really had Shakti coming through him, and he was a local guy with a lot of energy. I saw paintings in his apartment start to animate and change. And yet his ego was taking credit for what was going on in the Shakti. Those two things were going on. He didn’t know how to get out of the way and be the teacher.
Alan Steinfeld
What I hear you saying is that we need to be trained in what the personality is and what those energies are. We need courses and understanding in ego development and non-ego attachment, bringing in these higher energies.
Tom Kenyon
For anyone who follows a spiritual teacher who has spiritual power or in a spiritual tradition, that is a necessity. There needs to be a capacity to be able to understand vibrationally the difference between when a correct authentic transmission is occurring and when it’s contaminated by ego infestation and fixation. If a student is not able to do that, they’re in dangerous territory.
Alan Steinfeld
I want to give courses in how to know the difference. You know, just by stepping out of the way, it’s time to leave and say thank you very much. Have you seen the movie The Master? It’s an amazing movie with Philip Seymour Hoffman. It talks just about that. But the other subject I want to talk about with you is the idea of channeling. How do you actually call on these beings? You’re going to do an event somewhere, and what do you have to do to get out of the way? Or do they knock on the door and say we’re here, Tom?
Tom Kenyon
They knock on the door and say they’re here. If I need to, I will call on them. When I do an event, it’s already predetermined what the bulk of the energies are going to be. When I arrive there, it often changes. The central nexus point of the beings that are going to work with are there. I sometimes have the experience, and psychics have told me they can see this, that other beings line up out the door waiting to get in. If the topic is interesting. And then when they’re in these workshops, the stage gets very full with beings. They line up, and what happens for me neurologically is that I enter a receptive state.
Alan Steinfeld
How do you get to that?
Tom Kenyon
I just know how to do it now. I’ve done it for 35 years, and it’s just like a reflex, like learning how to type. If you’ve done it enough, you sit at the typewriter and you don’t even have to look. You go into a state of mind. Neurologically, what happens is my brain increases alpha activity. I’m relaxed, I have inner awareness and outer awareness. I’m aware of what’s going on in the room, but I have access to my inner worlds, and in the inner worlds, I can see these beings approaching me. I clairvoyantly see them. I feel their energy approach, the quality of consciousness that they are. They enter my field, and then they give these sounds. The sound moves into the room, and the energy field enters the room. This is an interesting phenomenon. Back in the ’80s, I was asked by the head of the Department of Psychology at the University of Georgia to do an interview. He was doing a series of interviews with people who worked with altered states of consciousness. There were three cameramen and a makeup person. It was a whole production. He said, ‘Tom, will you give us a demonstration now with the crystal bowl and this Hathor energy?’ I said sure. So I’m doing my bowl thing, and I psychically see the energy go straight into the camera locked directly in front. On either side, the energy’s not going into those cameras. I thought that was weird. When you’re in alpha, you can be aware of things in the environment that you’re not if you’re in a deeper, lower brain state. The guy operating the camera was a surfer dude with long blonde hair. After it was over, he went, ‘Dude,’ fell back against the wall, slid down to the floor and said, ‘That was awesome!’ And I hear a scream from the audio booth. The audio engineer said, ‘You won’t believe this. On the oscilloscope, I saw the shape of your crystal bowl.’
Alan Steinfeld
Wow.
Tom Kenyon
Ever the skeptic, because I always reference logic in altered states, I said, ‘Let’s do an experiment. Let’s run the videotape back and run it forward and let’s see if it shows up again.’ Because I was curious, would it show up again? No, it didn’t. It did not show up. So I think what happened was he became, the audio engineer listened to the sound, he didn’t see what was going on, and he entrained and entered an altered state in himself, and hallucinated or saw from a higher level the shape of the bowl. But the interesting thing was that when we ran the videotape through, the field effect of the sound, the field effect was operating external to the video. When I’m doing sound work, there’s this field effect that moves out. It’s a vibrational field that is so high there is no sound. Ancient traditions call it the unheard sound. That’s moving out and affecting people. So the sound actually did not create a change in the oscilloscope; it was the energy. He was affected by the field effect of the energy going out. That’s what happens when I work. My personal experience is that there’s the sound that comes through me, and there’s also an energy field that emanates out from my field.
Alan Steinfeld
Is there anything you want to bring through now? Are you not in the mood? Do you need implements to bring through Hathor energy?
Tom Kenyon
Well, I don’t need them, but I don’t really want to. This was meant to be a discussion.
Alan Steinfeld
I’m happy with that. I’m just curious, where do you feel your work is going? You’re sort of being guided step-by-step. I saw the movie The Song of the New Earth about you. It really explained this. So where is your work, the Hathors, leading all of this and the new consciousness?
Tom Kenyon
My personal work is I’m exploring at a far deeper level than I ever imagined the relationship between the male and female, the dyadic energy between myself and my wife, Judy, and the doors that it’s opening up. That is moving into a deeper understanding of the relationship between myself as a man and how to remain male and pay attention to relationships. So we’re moving into an amazing future. If I stop looking at myself, then I’m lost. If I let myself off the hook, my wife will make sure that I am attending to what I need to pay attention to. You’re very serious about this. And you have something really special happening because you are a student of consciousness. So what are you most excited about now in your area of study?
Alan Steinfeld
It would be my current exploration of the sutras out of the Dzogchen tradition and how it compares to the neuropsychological insights that are based on quantum physics. Because they nest together in a very beautiful way.
Tom Kenyon
And anything else you want to wrap up with?
Alan Steinfeld
I would say that every human being on the planet is a unique individual. And the treasure lies in each individual person. The different traditions, the spiritual lineages, have something to offer, but I think we have to sift, like when you’re panning for gold, you sift. You sift the dogma from the authenticity. The true gold, the true treasure, is the living mystery of every human being. Everyone on the planet is part of the living mystery, and they have the gold within them. That’s where the mining is best taken place.
Tom Kenyon
I get that.
Alan Steinfeld
So how do we extract them? That’s the individual work. Are you still doing workshops?
Tom Kenyon
Yes, my website is tomkenyon.com. There’s a lot of free content, and there’s a lot of things I’ll be doing.
Alan Steinfeld
I’ve been talking to Tom Kenyon for New Realities. You can find him at tomkenyon.com. And if you want to reach me, go to my website, newrealities.com. I want to thank my producer, Terry Karanikas, and everyone else here at the station, Judy Cotine and everybody else. Thanks for watching.