New Realities recorded on March 1, 2010
Summary
Alan Steinfeld interviews Professor William Tiller about his groundbreaking work bridging orthodox science with consciousness, exploring concepts like the biofield, intent, and higher dimensional reality. They discuss the limitations of current scientific paradigms, the need to include consciousness in scientific inquiry, and the potential for human evolution through coherent states and inner development.
Transcript
Alan Steinfeld
Welcome to New Realities. This is Alan Steinfeld. And each week on this program, I explore the emerging paradigm of consciousness and how we are creating new realities with new concepts and new ideas. And tonight’s guest is very much at the forefront of this paradigm shift. He is William Tiller, Professor Emeritus at Stanford University, and very much seen in movies like What the Bleep, and the author of books like Psychoenergetics. Thank you, Professor Tiller, for being here today.
William Tiller
It’s my pleasure.
Alan Steinfeld
Let me ask you about your work in this field of consciousness. It seems like for a long time science didn’t acknowledge that. And they still don’t. And how it comes to me is there’s really two ways of looking at the world. One is as if human life and consciousness is an accident of this primordial chemical soup. Or that consciousness itself is the ground of that and has created life. And I think what you’re working towards is a sort of a place between those two worldviews. Is that right?
William Tiller
My goal with the work I’ve been doing for the last 50 years is to build a reliable bridge of understanding that connects with orthodox science on one end and goes through the domains of the psyche, emotion, mind, and spirit, and is firmly embedded in the foundations of spirit at the other end. So, for me, we are all spirits having a physical experience as we ride the river of life together. Our spiritual parents dressed us in these bio-body suits and put us in this playpen that we call the universe in order to grow in coherence, in order to develop our gifts of intentionality, and in order to become what we were intended to become, which is co-creators with our spiritual parents. But the place that was needed to start was back in the days when the pathway to knowledge of logos morphed into the pathway of science. And Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, Newton basically took on the theocratic establishment at the time, who thought they knew everything, and showed them to be very wrong in their presumptions. And showed that it was very important in nature to look at the experimental data. And that is a very crucial part, it seems to me, of developing any understanding, whether it’s external to ourselves or internal to ourselves. And along that pathway, Descartes back in the late 1600s, early 1700s, tried to simplify the pathway to understanding. And so he presented an assumption that was very useful. But the assumption was that no human qualities of consciousness, intention, emotion, mind, or spirit can significantly influence a well-designed target experiment in physical reality. And although that was probably very useful in its day, it has become an unstated assumption of science ever since. And people have forgotten that it was an assumption because our experimental data in this modern time shows it to be absolutely wrong.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, it shows it to be wrong, but so many scientists rely on that type of science that an experiment must be repeatable and observable, and that it’s objective, it’s based on objective reality. Right?
William Tiller
Yeah, but the issue is it can be, if you do it right. It’s not easy, but you have to select the conditions properly. It’s much more difficult to do those kinds of experiments when the individuals involved have a strong biofield and can thereby unintentionally influence the experimental data.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, isn’t that true of every type of experiment that quantum physics is now, well not every type, but the quantum level of experiment, it seems like it’s always influenced.
William Tiller
Let’s be very clear about what we know of quantum mechanics. Okay? It has a serious limitation. And the limitation is that it has been framed in distance-time as a reference frame, which means that it cannot deal with any phenomena in nature that are not distance and time dependent. And if you think about it, consciousness, intention, emotion, mind, spirit, love, parapsychology, psychophysiology, none of those are necessarily inherently distance-time related. So quantum mechanics cannot effectively deal with them, and yet that’s our paradigm.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, those things you mentioned all seem like they’re very subjective realities.
William Tiller
They are human reality. They are human. They are the things that make us human.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. But isn’t that human experience… I mean, I’m just trying to find a way, and I think you’re the person that’s doing it, to move from this subjective human experience to bridge that world of objective reality. I mean, how…
William Tiller
Now the dilemma, let’s again be careful. The issue is there’s nothing wrong with subjective reality, but science, to go forward, you must be able to replicate things and you must be able to provide a protocol in which others can replicate things. That’s the path forward. Without that, we’re in trouble. So I’m saying that this class of phenomena, which is, it can be subjective in the sense that human belief systems, human intention, human expectations can move physical phenomena. I mean, they can.
Alan Steinfeld
You’ve proved this, right? That you’ve done experiments and it’s been repeatable and proved?
William Tiller
Some of the experiments have been repeated. You have to understand that orthodox science is actually stuck because… Okay, you need to understand about science. That what science tries always to do is to be internally self-consistent. Alright? And if you have a reference frame which is distance-time, then you’re trying to produce replicable experiments that are distance-time dependent. But the category of, and their assumption is that there’s nothing else in nature but distance-time phenomena. But the category of these other things I just talked about, they are not distance-time dependent phenomena. They’re another class of phenomena entirely, and therefore you have to change your reference frame to be able to be internally self-consistent to deal with them.
Alan Steinfeld
And they exist outside of space and time. Is this what you’re saying?
William Tiller
Yes, I’m saying yes. I’m talking about higher dimensions within the nature of the universe. Let’s say in nature. And I’m talking about things faster than light as well as things slower than light. So, on the one hand, we have two really major and important pieces of science that are the core of our paradigm. One is quantum mechanics, but it’s stuck in distance and time and it deals only with phenomena that are so related. And we have relativity theory which deals with things in distant time and has a barrier at the velocity of light. But you can calculate from basic quantum mechanical relativistic principles and show that there’s a phenomenon in nature that is faster than light. And therefore there’s a whole territory there and all the phenomena of the higher dimensional domains, they are basically faster than light and that’s why our instruments and our presently developed sensory system can’t access them. However, it is possible through the use of consciousness, applied in the right way, to access at least the next domain and maybe higher domains still.
Alan Steinfeld
Do you think it’s possible to build an instrument that would be able to access that?
William Tiller
We have already have done that. We have built an instrument that lets us access things that function in the physical vacuum. And which are, well actually a man did it back in 1961, published it in a book on modern physics. And I don’t think the scientific community ever really realized that he had done this, but he showed that if you set up, he looked at what’s called the particle-pilot wave, which was de Broglie’s concept.
Alan Steinfeld
Louis de Broglie?
William Tiller
Yes, he got a Nobel Prize for this.
Alan Steinfeld
This is the person who we’re talking about?
William Tiller
We’re talking about de Broglie.
Alan Steinfeld
de Broglie did in 61?
William Tiller
Yes, back in the 1920s. He talked about the particle-pilot wave issue and it turns out when you make a deep analysis of that from basically simple quantum mechanics and simple relativity theory that you can show that there are really three interacting systems here. One is the particle, one is a group wave from the vacuum which is around the particle, and the third is a wave that moves faster than light and it creates the group wave that moves along with the particle. And so that’s one of the cornerstones of quantum mechanics. And if you come to the position where you say, alright, I will allow the simultaneous existence of both particles and waves, you can create everything else in quantum mechanics. But it has the limitation of the velocity of light. And so you have to include, if we’re going to expand our science, and that’s what we must do. We must take what we have, see where the weakness is, and expand the frame of reference. Then we can begin to access those aspects of the universe that ultimately lead to spirit.
Alan Steinfeld
Do you know the work of Nassim Haramein?
William Tiller
Yes.
Alan Steinfeld
What do you think of that black hole physics?
William Tiller
I think that he has done very, very fine work in the orthodox domain. He’s a good scientist. And I don’t know him personally, so I don’t know where he sits with respect to higher dimensional realms. I suspect that he’s open to that possibility, but the mathematics of his that I have seen is in the orthodox domain. Which is fine.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. So, yeah, so you’re saying consciousness exists in a realm that’s not of this dimension. I mean basically, but…
William Tiller
Yes. It’s not determined by the physics of this dimension. To me, see, we don’t know… We don’t all agree on what consciousness means. To me, consciousness is a byproduct of spirit entering dense matter. And spirit only can enter dense matter and attach if the being or organism has done infrastructure work on itself, if it’s built information into itself. You know, even though we disagree perhaps on what consciousness is, we probably don’t disagree on what consciousness does, and what consciousness appears to do is manipulate information. Because information gives, creating meaning is exactly building up states of information. Whether it’s a set of numbers, whether it’s a set of letters in a particular language to make words and the words strung together to make sentences. They have meaning. A set of symbols, if you look at the Maxwell equations on electrodynamics, heavens, there are four equations with maybe collectively a little more than a dozen symbols, and they basically characterize the work of thousands upon thousands of scientists over a couple of hundred years. That’s really information. Huge amounts of information. And of course the simple one we all know about is when we pull a… we got a cloudy day outside and on a weekend, we pull a box off a shelf and we make maps or pictures out of it by just taking strange arrangements of pieces and so on. So we’ve all done that. That’s creating information by rearranging the organization of a set of odd objects.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. So, I mean, but consciousness just doesn’t exist in the symbol making creatures. I mean, do you believe consciousness exists on all levels of life forms or do you make a distinction?
William Tiller
As far as I’m concerned, in my model, that which is a consciousness acting moiety in nature. I call it the coupler. It allows the particle pilot wave of an electron or a proton or an atom to combine together. Because the driving force for one goes faster than light and the driving force for the other must go slower than light. And in order to have these things exist, you need such a coupler. Now, what that means to me is that at the very most fundamental particle of nature, consciousness already exists. So it’s everywhere.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. It already exists. And I think, and I do agree with you, but there’s a certain distinction when consciousness becomes conscious of itself.
William Tiller
I would not… Well, I guess we don’t know enough about consciousness to say consciousness becoming conscious of itself. It’s kind of a… I’m not sure that it’s a word or a philosophical concept to play around with effectively. I would say living organisms becoming conscious of themselves as distinct from inorganic system. And even an inorganic system, in essence, you can say has an aspect of consciousness because no matter what material you have, it has a fingerprint that is radiating electromagnetically all the time. So it’s an electromagnetic pattern that it sends out to some other block of inanimate material, which is radiating back. It gets stimulated by these electromagnetic signals and it starts pumping out its own electromagnetic pattern. So until we understand what consciousness is, here we see an exchange, an information exchange. Is that one rock talking to another rock? Well, you’d have to define what talking means. But the issue is that you can as you go through this thing, you begin to see that consciousness comes from let’s say a minimal cognitive level to becoming more and more cognitive as you go up the line towards humans through the animal species.
Alan Steinfeld
I mean, we seem to be in some strange level of consciousness where we’re in a way fighting the essence of nature and also trying to live in harmony with it. And we are really at a crossroad. The human condition in its terms of its conscious experience.
William Tiller
Well, I think that there’s a lot to be said for what you just put on the table. And the… I tend to look at this reference frame of distance and time as a classroom. As a classroom for us to grow and experience. To develop our gifts of intentionality and to become more coherent. And we have free will. I mean, it’s another experiment in the chain. So free will gives you choices. And I think the growth of consciousness requires you to make choices so that you can build yourself. You can build more infrastructure into yourself. And as you do, you become to me, in my modeling, more spirit can attach. And you can become more aware and more awake, and you can see phenomena and appreciate phenomena that you never could before. So, working on yourself on the inside as well as on the outside, I think is our path forward.
Alan Steinfeld
And I think the word coherency is the key because that seems to be vital to our evolution somehow.
William Tiller
I think it is. I mean, if we take the simple example of an incandescent light bulb, it gives a bit of light but not a lot of light. Let’s say we’re looking at a 60 watt light bulb. If we could somehow arrange each of those photons to come out riding on the back of each other so that they were in phase with each other, then the energy density coming out of that total light bulb would probably be something like 10 to 100 times the surface of the sun. So what we see here is the potential that exists in a light bulb. That incandescent light bulb. We’re now using coherent light in the form of fiber optics in the tail lights of cars. So we’re moving towards using that potential. And I’m suggesting that even greater potential exists within us. And that we’re in this classroom to develop that potential, and then to go beyond this classroom.
Alan Steinfeld
And of course it seems like the ancient practices, the disciplines were part of that development of that potential, but it also seems like right now we are in a time of transformation and from my research it seems like we are being assisted somehow to come online for another level of coherency. Do you go along with that or?
William Tiller
Very much. I think we’re very close to the next epoch of our evolution, and it’s within the next couple of hundred years I suspect, where we will step up in our level of coherence. The classroom will be one in which we will be much, much more coherent than we are now, and closer to the source.
Alan Steinfeld
Now, why is that happening to you? Do you believe in the 2012 myths and all that?
William Tiller
I tend to think that, or at least the answer I give to most people who ask that question, I say I think the Mayans got tired of projecting their calendar out. And there’s some truth to that, but the other fact is we cannot escape that something rather remarkable is going on in our world around us. I mean the weather issues and all of those things. Even though I don’t give any power to the 2012 situation, I recognize that by 2012 we’ll be in a much worse state than we are now.
Alan Steinfeld
Environmentally, you’re saying? In the environment you’re saying?
William Tiller
Oh I certainly do. I mean, I think when we see global warming, that’s just one little signature that heralds the growth of great winds and great hurricanes and great upsets with respect to temperature swings and thus weather swings and earthquakes and all of those kinds of things. Although we’ve had them before, they’re pretty striking at this point in time. And the weather patterns are such that we’ve had hurricanes off the east coast for a lot, but now we’re starting to, pardon me, off the east coast, and we’re starting to see them on the west coast. So I anticipate that ultimately both coasts are going to be in serious trouble with respect to weather issues.
Alan Steinfeld
But along with that we’re getting a greater coherency within our global civilization. I mean things like the internet I think are…
William Tiller
Yeah, that’s important, and I agree, it is becoming global. But I think the answer to why that’s becoming global is something that perhaps many societies do not want to hear, but it goes as follows. Nature is driven by thermodynamics. And thermodynamics seeks equilibrium between different systems. Okay? And if we look at that thermodynamic issue globally, well I should put in one little thing. Women wear diamond rings on their fingers. Well, diamond is not the thermodynamically stable state at room temperature and normal pressure, one atmosphere pressure. However, the kinetics of change to the equilibrium phase, which is carbon, graphite, is so slow that it takes billions of years to produce any significant change in the diamonds. Well, that’s called a metastable state. And for the last several hundred years, we’ve had a metastable state in which certain nations have had a high standard of living, and a lot of the other nations have not had a high standard of living. And so thermodynamics would naturally try to bring those together, except there hasn’t been any kinetics. It took too long to transfer information and money and people and things. But since the beginning of the computer domain, the computer age in the 60s, that seems now to be very different. You can transfer things from one place on the globe to another furthest reaches on the globe very, very quickly. And nations in other countries have been learning to become better educated. So they can compete with people in the US and other parts of the world on all levels of science and understanding. And what that means then is that there will be this thermodynamic transformation where it will go global and much more than it is now, and there will be an equalizing of the standard of living, unless we in what we’ll call for the moment advanced nations, unless we become incredibly innovative, and I don’t see that happening. So the outlook…
Alan Steinfeld
Well, we don’t see it happening, but invention and novelty always comes when people don’t see it happening.
William Tiller
Well that part is true. I agree with that. So I’m certainly hopeful that everybody’s standard of living can be raised. And that countries of the third world will be first world countries before this century is out.
Alan Steinfeld
I agree with you and I hope so too. And I think your work is so important because you’re dealing with this thing called consciousness which transcends the dogma of religions and makes everyone sort of an equal player and an equal opportunity because we all have this thing called consciousness.
William Tiller
Well, I think the issue is that religions have had a, they’ve said they’re interested in spirituality, but I think that’s primarily been marketing to the population. But most religions are man-made. They’re aspiring to do mythos, that is to be guided from higher domains of the universe and the source of us all. Until you can do experiments, you know, you can’t be really serious. That’s the dilemma. You can do experiments on yourself, and that’s the mythos path of looking within. And there you have meditation, you have yoga, you have qigong, you have HeartMath, you have Sufism. So there are a variety of paths that one can use to develop themselves internally and thus change from a normal individual to an adept, from an adept to a master, and ultimately from a master to an avatar. And everybody can do it. We all have the basic infrastructure within us to allow that to happen. If we’re willing to work at it. And that’s the dilemma. People have to be willing by their own free will to work on themselves within.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, okay, so you’re doing experiments and I think it’s great. Can you describe that? But before you do, is there some kind of law that you can state that will open up the scientific world to what you are trying to prove?
William Tiller
Ah, that is the toughest nut to crack. It takes a long time. I did… I had a mistaken assumption in the beginning when I started down this path while I was an orthodox professor, in fact department chair at Stanford, which I gave up in order to have time to do this other in parallel. I thought if I continued to do world class science in the orthodox domain and was recognized for that, then if I did equal quality work as I thought of it in this other domain, that people would pay attention. The orthodox community would pay attention. But that isn’t true. I have found that they would much prefer to sweep it under the rug because they found it to be threatening. And it’s threatening because it’s this thing I said of looking for internal self-consistency. It is not internally self-consistent with orthodox science. It cannot be because it has entirely different bases. It’s not distance-time phenomena. And so there’s a class of nature which is outside of distance-time. And until we get it that that’s a real possibility and we should expand our frame of reference of looking at nature, then I don’t think there will be this kind of nice harmony I’d love to see. So I think it’s going to be the general public that will push the system. They pay for all the research anyway through their taxes. And they’re really interested in this because they feel kind of trapped in the science that we presently have, as much as they respect it very highly. They’re looking for a different way out.
Alan Steinfeld
So you’re saying because consciousness is not of the third dimension in a sense, if we could recognize that and somehow prove it, it would create more opportunities for science and for the public. How would it create more opportunities?
William Tiller
Well, because we can change the properties of materials. From our work, we find that there are two levels of physical reality, not just the electric atom-molecule one that we’re all familiar with. But the coarsest level of the physical vacuum, which we cannot see, is also accessible. And when you use consciousness, you can bring about… Normally these two levels do not interact with each other because the vacuum-type level goes faster than the velocity of light. And so the relativity theory says if you don’t have some kind of coupler then one is just invisible to the other. But we have found a way through consciousness to bring about a coupler. And that coupler then allows these two things to talk to each other and interact with each other. And it allows you to change the property of materials through your intention.
Alan Steinfeld
Wait. Explain coupler. I’m sorry, just…
William Tiller
What I had to propose was in order to get slower-than-light things to interact with faster-than-light things, I had to propose that there existed in nature a material or a quality, whichever word you want to use, that can go both slower than light and faster than light, because they’re outside of the constraints of four-dimensional relativity theory. And because of that, then it’s possible to combine, allow these two things… you can have an uncoupled state of physical reality, and that’s where orthodox science and orthodox medicine works. But you can have a coupled level of physical reality where now there are two pieces, one going faster than light, one going slower. And with your intention you can change… our experiments show that you can change the one that’s functioning in the physical vacuum. You don’t seem to be changing the electric atom-molecule one. But because they’re coupled together, then the combination of the two allows you to make a property go up in magnitude or down in magnitude. We have been able to take water and we can increase its pH, that is its acid-alkaline balance, by, One pH unit either up or down. And one pH unit is very significant. It’s a factor of 10 in hydrogen ion concentration. If you were doing it with respect to your blood, if you just increase the pH of your blood by half a pH unit or lowered it by half a pH unit, you’d be dead on both ends. So one pH unit is a lot. And that’s the one that’s been replicated around the world. We’ve been able to do both of those things. We’ve been able to expand to look at liver enzyme, alkaline phosphatase. And the intention has been to increase its thermodynamic activity significantly. And we have been able to condition a space to a higher level of reality and then just expose that for 30 minutes to that space. And indeed, we have been able to increase the thermodynamic activity of that liver enzyme by 30% with p-values better than 0.001. Moving to a living system, we have worked with fruit fly larvae, and we have done experiments to increase the energy storage molecule relative to its chemical precursor. That means ATP to ADP. That is to go from two phosphorus molecules or atoms in the molecule to three. And the whole idea for doing that was to make the fruit fly larvae more physically fit and therefore significantly reduce the development time to the adult fly stage. Usually, the adult fly stage takes about 28 days.
Alan Steinfeld
Now, you’ve done this with people, though. No, just back up.
William Tiller
No, people are too complicated. We’ve done some things with people, but you don’t do experiments with people to try to… You’ve got to do a science experiment.
Alan Steinfeld
But you’ve done it with people affecting. How does the experiment work? I mean, do you use…
William Tiller
First of all, what we do, if you just give me a moment. We set up the experiment to run under normal conditions, and we get a lot of background data. And then what we do is we design a specific intention to change the experiment the way we want. And we then embed that intention into a simple electronic circuit from a deep meditative state. And then we take that intention host device, we put it near the experiment that’s running, and just turn it on. Its electrical power output of that simple electrical device is less than one millionth of a watt. And we have seen experimental data change in the direction of the intention and to the close proximity of the intentional increase or decrease, whichever we had decided.
Alan Steinfeld
I just want to ask you, aren’t some people more powerful in that intention than others?
William Tiller
Of course. The reason we use the device is because people have done… we’ve used swamis with their strong fields, they can do those things, but they can’t do the same thing every day, and they can’t replicate it in different laboratories just by sending the intention host device there. We have been able to do that with respect to the water experiment, which is cheap and easy to do.
Alan Steinfeld
So repeatability somehow.
William Tiller
Exactly. We have found this to be repeatable basically in 10 laboratories in the US and in Europe. And we have seen entanglement between laboratories in Europe and our Payson laboratory over 6,000 miles. We’ve seen the kinds of experiments we’re doing here manifesting in those laboratories.
Alan Steinfeld
Entanglement is not anything mainstream science would recognize either, right?
William Tiller
They do recognize quantum entanglement, which can occur at very low temperatures and with very small systems like two photons and such. But we are able to do this at room temperature with laboratory spaces of something like 10,000 cubic feet over distances of at the moment 6,000 miles. So that’s really something. We’re not only seeing entanglement in distance, but we see entanglement in time.
Alan Steinfeld
What are you most excited about now? What level of your work?
William Tiller
Well, we’re starting to come to the applications end of things, to be able to imprint supplements to a higher level of reality so they can be more life-supporting for humans. We have started to do experiments relative to diminishing the electromagnetic challenge for humans from human cell phones, to try to reduce the absorption cross section of humans for cell phone electromagnetic radiations. So we have been trying to take… We’ve done experiments on broadcasting these kinds of things over long distances. And so we’re pursuing that. But in essence, to bring this to a commercial level so people can see it’s possible to change our reality. Now the downside of that… For example, one of the things we’re starting to play with is to look at finding ways to make room temperature superconductivity from materials. Change them in such a way that they can function at room temperatures. There are all kinds of applications in that case. But the issue then is you have to lift the space, you have to lift the symmetry state of the space and maintain it. We have developed a device where we can quantitatively measure the departure from normal reality in a space. And you have to get to a certain level before this vacuum level starts seriously coupling with the electromagnetic level.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s interesting. You’re saying the normal reality… How do you measure a normal reality?
William Tiller
We have thousands of instruments for measuring our normal reality. The thermodynamics for the normal reality has been known for 150 years. I’ve just expanded the thermodynamics because we’re now expanding the reality. And when I do, I can predict what should happen from certain measurements. And so we are making tools that will let us see into this next domain. I’ve got a long way to go, but at least we made a beginning. But I wanted to get to the key point. The key point is I think we’re going to be able to do all of these things, but it will only be sustained if the human beings become pumper-uppers instead of drainer-downers.
Alan Steinfeld
What do you mean by that?
William Tiller
I mean people who are positive and radiating these positive qualities from themselves. From in fact their acupuncture meridian system. Instead of being negative and living a life feeling negative about things all the time. They’re what I call drainer-downers. The issue is, it’s very much like the issue that existed before we made the laser. What you had to do with the atomic state was you had to lift it to a higher energy level. And only certain materials could do this, but then when they cascade down, they could be held at the higher level for quite a long time. So that now when you triggered the system, you would get a flash of laser light and eventually find ways to do it continuously. And the power densities were huge. I’m saying the same kind of thing in essence, that you have to create a metastable state in the space you’re in. It’s like a saint being in a room. Or like in some of the ancient churches. You walk in and you just feel remarkable.
Alan Steinfeld
A sacred space. A place of centeredness.
William Tiller
Exactly. And so we can create the ability to do that in people’s offices or in schools, etc. And that’s what changes the properties of materials and changes the human interactions. But people have to be able to sustain that by their own internal self-development.
Alan Steinfeld
How do we create that state in offices? How would we do that?
William Tiller
People have to want to do it. They have to change themselves, they have to work on themselves. They have to start going within and reflecting and looking at that aspect of nature. Except for the mystics, basically most of the last 400 years has been looking outside at nature and manipulating it to create the technologies we presently have.
Alan Steinfeld
If I can sort of get… What you’re saying is that if we create a sacred society, our sciences will then evolve even faster to create a greater technology and a higher standard of living.
William Tiller
Yes, but it will be a different science than we have today. It will be an expanded science.
Alan Steinfeld
If you could write… If you could just go out on a limb, very theoretical and write these new laws without worrying about experimentation right now, what would you come up with? And what would the world look like?
William Tiller
That’s what I’m doing with these white papers on my website. I have written 13, well 11 plus 2, because they are the new pathway. I make them free for people. They can read them, copy them, they can spread the word. But ultimately they have to be willing to work on themselves. Because we have found that the human acupuncture meridian chakra system and probably many vertebrates have this, they’re already at the coupled level of physical reality. And if there’s a system in the body that’s at the coupled level of physical reality, then their intention can cause huge changes to occur. It becomes like a chi pump, driven by the human’s desire and intention. But you’ve got to continue creating the infrastructure in yourself.
Alan Steinfeld
I’m interested… I actually studied acupuncture, so I studied it for four years. What do you say about the acupuncture meridians as far as consciousness?
William Tiller
I’m saying that the acupuncture meridian system is already at the coupled level of physical reality. It is a unique system, and we found this experimentally. It’s a unique system that allows people’s intentions to move chi. We’ll call it chi, I call it magneto-electric energy, but for the lay public, it would be chi or prana, whichever word you want to use. And that’s the driving energy that stimulates the electromagnetic body. That’s really like a life force. That’s in essence where the vital force is.
Alan Steinfeld
Do you have a paper on that that you’ve written?
William Tiller
Yes, I have written many papers. If you look at white paper number 13 on my website, there are 155 papers in the subtle energy area. And some of them relate to exactly that. In fact, you’ll find several white papers on my website that deal with that phenomenon. It talks about the experiments that show that. In fact, white paper 3 is one. And actually white paper 1 and white paper 3 are just a simple place to begin. White paper 1 will give you some of the experimental information and the important points. And white paper 3 goes more deeply to show the difference in the foundation of physics between orthodox medicine and complementary alternative medicine, energy medicine, information medicine.
Alan Steinfeld
Your website is tillerfoundation.com, right?
William Tiller
The easiest one is just tiller.org. The other one works too. I didn’t know that, but the one when I set it up was just tiller.org. And that’s for all the information, the books, the DVDs, the white papers, yeah.
Alan Steinfeld
So, how long do you think it’s going to take, a couple of hundred years before science can really grasp what you’re saying?
William Tiller
I think it’ll take less time than that, because we’re having this crunch, and we’ll have an even worse crunch. I think that the general public, once they become more awake to what is a pathway, they’ll push the system through their votes and demand that orthodox science get off the pot.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, it’s as big as the Copernican revolution.
William Tiller
At least, yes it is. Because it really brings consciousness into physics. It’s a fundamental variable.
Alan Steinfeld
I’ve always been fascinated by it. One thing I would love to do is trace the embryological development of the meridian from the sperm and egg onwards.
William Tiller
The issue is complex in the sense that there’s no histological evidence at all of the cellular issues at that level, because they’re at the next level of reality. They’re at what I call the magnetic information wave level of substance in the vacuum. And but even though it’s there, it’s connected to some degree because it’s coupled. It’s already coupled to the electric atom molecule level. And therefore the changes that occur in the primary meridian system creates energies that can interact with the electromagnetic. And then that’s why it stimulates the body the way it does.
Alan Steinfeld
You know there’s many levels of meridians. I think the most interesting ones are the ones they call the eight psychic channels. Do you know about those?
William Tiller
I don’t know much about that, I’m not an expert. But I think it’s terribly important to do that. And with my modeling somewhere down the line, I want to be able to mathematically predict why this kind of structure that has been drawn in the books is the important structure or a pathway to the important structure.
Alan Steinfeld
That sounds great and fascinating. And I think there is a quantum effect at the acupuncture point.
William Tiller
Absolutely. The reason the way we were able to show that the human acupuncture meridian system was at the coupled level of physical reality was when we realized that if you used a DC magnetic field and you looked at North Pole versus South Pole at a phenomenon or an experiment or a system. If you saw a difference when you changed from North Pole to South Pole, then you’re at a coupled level of physical reality. Because normally, in our normal level, all we have are magnetic dipoles. And magnetic dipoles have no difference in energy or force by changing them to any geometrical orientation in space-time. So what we did was we took acupuncture points on the body that were connected to certain muscle groups, and we used advanced kinesiology, and brought a South Pole up to within a centimeter of those body points. And wow, you found that the muscle was strong. Just turn it around, bring the North Pole up within a centimeter of the body and boom, that muscle is weak. The body is basically electric. So if it has this DC magnetic field polarity effect, ergo it means that it has built into it already a system which is already at the coupled level of physical reality. And if you look at the proprioceptors in the muscles, they are subtly connected to the acupuncture meridian system. And so that’s why I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s the acupuncture meridian system that is already at the coupled level of physical reality, and that’s what one has to work with with their intention.
Alan Steinfeld
They’re doing that with what they call EFT, the emotional freedom technique. Do you know about that?
William Tiller
Yes, I’ve talked to those people for 20 years or more, Gary Craig and such. In fact there is a DVD on that where I was speaking 20 years ago. Maybe it was 10.
Alan Steinfeld
About the acupuncture meridians. Is this in your recent books?
William Tiller
That’s been more recent. It’s in the Psychoenergetic Science book, yes.
Alan Steinfeld
I really love your work. Is there another book out, Psychoenergetic Science?
William Tiller
Yes, there’s a third book, “Some Science Adventures with Real Magic.” That was published in 2005.
Alan Steinfeld
I like the other two. Actually I read them years ago. But those are brilliant. Well, just sort of to jump again, I don’t want to get off track. But if consciousness is non-local, do you believe that there’s life on other planets and that we have been visited? You’re trying to prove this.
William Tiller
I would be very surprised if that wasn’t true. And I tend to think it is true. I can’t prove it yet, but it’s one of my working hypotheses.
Alan Steinfeld
So in this paradigm shift, how does the world…
William Tiller
Let’s see if I can answer your question, because it’s a very big question. If you look, once we accept consciousness and those levels of reality as a fundamental fact, how do we live as a culture? What do you see as that utopian vision in a way? Well, what I see is that you first… all any of us could do is change ourselves. That’s where we start. And so if we build the infrastructure in ourselves, and by our own inner practices and work, then we can begin to get together and train ourselves as a group to be more coherent and therefore more powerful. And coherence, just as the example with the light bulb, can apply to people. At the moment we’re not very coherent. So in fact, you can sometimes get a small group of people to act coherently for a while. But if you take people today and try to get a large group, then instead of having constructive interference, you have destructive interference. Anybody who’s worked on a committee knows how that thing works. It’s very seldom does a committee work effectively as a coherent group. Takes pretty special people. But all people can be pretty special people, just with effort.
Alan Steinfeld
So if we were to live in a coherent society on a global level, what would our physics look like? What would our society and culture look like?
William Tiller
Our physics would be exploring the universe beyond the velocity of light. That’s one thing. People would be radiating to each other so that people wouldn’t get sick. You would love each other. You’d be coherent with each other. You would cooperate with each other. You would share with each other. I mean, it may seem like a utopia, but that’s what coherence does. I mean, you will see others as part of yourself.
Alan Steinfeld
And this is the potential we have as a culture.
William Tiller
Exactly, it is the potential we have. We just have to become awake to it. And we have to make the effort to build ourselves. You don’t get it for nothing. The book “The Secret” is sort of like pre-kindergarten as far as I’m concerned. But in essence, think of yourself with the concept of a power station. Basically what you want to do, as you build infrastructure into yourself, is you want to broaden the band of transmission, and you want to enhance the power level at every frequency. So that in fact, that’s what people will become. When I say to develop the gifts of intentionality, I really mean it to the point eventually we spin planets out of ourselves. That’s a long way down the road, but the capability is there. The potential capability is there.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, it’s very exciting work because you’re sort of a mystic working in the realms of the mind, of science.
William Tiller
You can either call me a mystic scientist or a scientist mystic, whichever way you like. But it requires the integration of effort on both the logos path and the mythos path.
Alan Steinfeld
But the thing is, you wouldn’t be a mystic if you didn’t actually have an experience of those mystical realities, right?
William Tiller
Well, to me they were all natural. I started out as a poet as a young man. And my wife fell in love with a poet and was kind of unhappy when I turned into a scientist. So it’s just, you know, it’s just the way the path went. But we were both interested in these things back in the 1950s when I was doing my graduate work at the University of Toronto. And it just grew. We became daily meditators early in the 1960s. And so we’ve been following this path for a long, long time.
Alan Steinfeld
Were you aware of the work of that guy in Virginia? What was his name?
William Tiller
Edgar Cayce. He was our first main… In 1955, we were reading The Miracle Man of Virginia Beach.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. And who was a scientist in the Blue Mountains up there? There was another guy who played with electrons and atoms.
William Tiller
Oh, you’re thinking of Tesla?
Alan Steinfeld
No, not Tesla. There was another guy who wasn’t as well known, who had a whole unit.
William Tiller
There were many. I mean, there were just… There’s been a lot. In my book “Psychoenergetic Science” in chapter two, I show a couple of figures, one of the logos path of scientists who devoted time to it, and another one for the mythos path. But once you get past the avatars of Krishna, Melchizedek, Moses, Lao Tzu, Confucius, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Abdul Baha, then you get into Swedenborg, you get into von Reichenbach, you get into just all kinds of folks who…
Alan Steinfeld
You may be thinking of Rhine.
William Tiller
Rhine was one of them, but I’m thinking of someone who has a place in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Well, there have been many there. One of the best ones of the last century, of course, is there in New York, Ingo Swann.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh yeah, Ingo’s a genius, yes. Well, I mean, thank you for this amazing overview of where we have to go now.
William Tiller
It’s a pleasure to talk to folks that are interested in becoming more.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh yeah, I’m totally interested, and I think that this is really the only hope we have for a civilization, is to look at science in these ways, because…
William Tiller
Yes, and it really just is, it’s not complex. It just is necessary to expand our science to include consciousness and human intention and these inner qualities of humans as real experimental variables that can be modified.
Alan Steinfeld
Thank you, Professor Tiller, for your work. Any final words?
William Tiller
My final word, I suppose, is when people ask me this question, there’s nothing more important to do for an individual who wants to move down this path but to begin becoming a serious meditator.
Alan Steinfeld
And then they’ll discover the actual physics within themselves.
William Tiller
Exactly. And that’s where we’re at.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay, I will direct people to your website, and I’m sure you’ll make some appearances.
William Tiller
Have fun with it.
Alan Steinfeld
Thank you. And your website is tiller.org.
William Tiller
tiller.org, yep.
Alan Steinfeld
I appreciate your work. I think it’s very important. So thank you. I’ll let you know when this is up on the website too.
William Tiller
Thanks very much. Bye now.
Alan Steinfeld
Bye. I’ve been talking to Professor Tiller, and I think he is really a pioneer in the movement of consciousness and science. This is Alan Steinfeld for New Realities. Email me at newrealities@earthlink.net. Thank you.