Originally recorded on December 16, 2014
Summary
Alan Steinfeld interviews Jason Voss, author of ‘The Intuitive Investor.’ They discuss how investing can be a spiritual practice, the four states of consciousness (infinity, paradox, harmonization, and action), and the importance of making conscious decisions in both finance and life. Voss shares his journey from a successful investment manager to a spiritual seeker, emphasizing the role of meditation and intuition in making ethical and meaningful choices.
Transcript
Alan Steinfeld
Welcome to New Realities. This is Alan Steinfeld, and this program is about the evolution of our consciousness, of our culture, the totality of a civilization that seems to be moving, I think, towards a higher evolution. And that’s why I’m talking to tonight’s guest, Jason Voss, who’s written a book called The Intuitive Investor. He brings meditation, he brings a lot of the ideas and practices that I’ve been talking about on this show to the business world. So, Jason, welcome. I’m very happy you’re here today.
Jason Voss
Alan, it’s great to be here. Thanks for the invitation.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, and you know what I like about you is that you are really grounded in the practical world of business and economics and yet you’re so open. I’m surprised how open you are to these non material elements and for me, I don’t see quite how the material world of money and investing really fits in with this non material world of spirituality and meditation. How do you make that bridge?
Jason Voss
Well, first,
Alan Steinfeld
I’m sorry, do you want to introduce your background first? I should do that.
Jason Voss
Oh, sure, sure, you bet. Not a problem. You know, I was an investment manager for a number of years, and I had quite a level of success here in the United States. I worked for a company called The Davis Funds, and I managed a fund called The Davis Appreciation and Income Fund. And I, after having had an epiphany in New York City, back in late 2004, I decided to retire in 2005. And I then wrote a book about some of the information that had come out of years and years and years worth of meditation practice as well as business practice. But in answer to your question about how to bridge the material and the spiritual, especially in a modern context, you know, I spent the early part of the intuitive investor talking about this. And for me investing is the reason we’re on the planet. And let me be clear about this, because when people hear the word investing, they think stocks, bonds, mutual funds, real estate, maybe art, maybe jewelry if they’re really, you know, freaky or something. But investing is nothing more than making conscious decisions about your life with the resources that you have at your disposal or for your use or borrowing or however you want to put it. And so crossing the street is an investment of sorts. How the route you take to work is an investment of sorts. How you spend your free time is an investment of sorts. How you interact with your spouse is an investment of sorts. And then you also have the more sort of normal realm that people think of investing, which is, to forgo future consumption. This is the technical definition. Forgo future consumption for future benefit. And so the way you bridge it is you just recognize that let’s make as many conscious choices as possible, which is one of the central themes of my book. And that’s how those two worlds are bridged.
Alan Steinfeld
So you’re saying let me see if I can integrate this into my life, into my understanding. Yeah, I think, so anything you put your time and your attention into is an investment. Right?
Jason Voss
That’s correct. Yeah, that’s right. And so then it becomes about context. What’s the context? What investment are you wanting to make right now? Do you want to make an investment in your future by going back to school and learning something? Do you want to make an investment in your present by sitting in meditation? Do you want to make an investment in your marriage? Do you want to make an investment in terms of your bank account? You get to choose the context.
Alan Steinfeld
But is making an investment, I know it’s a philosophical question, about the future and not living in the present? I mean, from that definition. You know what I mean?
Jason Voss
Yeah, sure. Yeah, that’s one of the interesting things about investing is it’s all about the future. It’s about discounting the future. It’s about making decisions now that will have an effect on the future. And, you know, in the spiritual realm, you know, of course, the many spiritual traditions talk about focusing on the present moment. So the question, I think you’re asking is, how do you reconcile those two seemingly conflicting things? Well, my own view, and interestingly enough, some of the people who have read the book, who have engaged with me in dialogue about it, have said, you know, your book goes down kind of an interesting pathway in which that there’s an implication in the book. And I’m like, OK, what’s the implication? They said the time is not real, right? And I would tend to contend that that’s exactly what I believe. So let me lay this back into an investment context. So we don’t take what you had hoped probably was a grounded discussion into an ungrounded realm. And that is, yeah, time is not real, but consciousness scales. And what do I mean by that? The book is organized, the intuitive investor is organized around four principles. And the first one is infinity, which and then the next state of consciousness is paradox, which is where the left brain, right brain or the quantum collides with the the Newtonian, if you will. The third state of consciousness is harmonization where you sort of disappear and you merge with something else. And then the fourth state of consciousness is where we experience time. And that’s action, I call it. And there affects follow causes. And I tend to think that the reason that state of consciousness exists, and that’s the primary state of consciousness we find ourselves in, is all about learning lessons, right? If the world were ordered differently, we couldn’t learn anything because when effects fall out causes, our choices have consequences. And when they have consequences, it helps us grow and learn as people. So the question here, like how do you reconcile the material world with the spiritual world, I think is answered by saying consciousness scales. So the principle one infinity consciousness, which is the sort of now consciousness, the state of consciousness of no consciousness encapsulates and includes that fourth state of consciousness, which is the action, you know, effects fall out causes consciousness. And that’s that’s the realm right there, effects fall out causes, where investing takes place.
Alan Steinfeld
Let me see if we can break it down just a little bit, because I really want to follow what you’re saying, because I think you can help me become more grounded in that world. So the first level, you break your book into four parts. And the first part is what exactly? Can you?
Jason Voss
Infinity. And that principle is that the secular version of that is the universe is infinite. The non secular version of that is God is infinite. And so the natural consequence if you believe that, and I state it in the book of, you know, you get into these really bizarre in the modern world in its notions of religion, you get into this very bizarre situation, especially in the more traditional religions like Christianity, where they imagine God outside of self, right? It doesn’t interpenetrate self. So because it doesn’t include you, that means that God is finite in some way. And that doesn’t make sense. How could a finite God create an infinite universe? So the only real answer, if you’re going to have a spiritual reality, is you have to believe in infinity of one form or another. And the consequence of that is that you and I are part of it, which means that we’re all interconnected as well. We’re all part of the totality.
Alan Steinfeld
You know what’s interesting that the scientists took that part of religion and saying that, you know, God, you know, the Christian, Judeo Christian God really doesn’t have anything to to do with us. It lives outside of us. And they took those ideas, they threw up a god and substituted the Big Bang. And they and we live now in a godless universe. That doesn’t have anything to do with us. So I mean, that’s the legacy of that type of thinking that we’ve inherited through the kind of dogma of science. So.
Jason Voss
Yeah, that’s spiritual materialism, that rational determinism is hugely detrimental. So principle one is sort of the ideal state. It’s the consciousness of no consciousness. It’s, regardless of the spiritual tradition you look at, they all have as a destination that sort of enlightened consciousness with stability, right? It’s not just the momentary enlightenment, the Japanese call it Kaji, which means a momentary enlightenment. It’s stabilized enlightenment where you and the universe are one simultaneously, there’s not a differentiation. That’s the goal. And that includes that effects follow causes consciousness, which is the really sort of stepped down consciousness of into the material world where you make investment decisions.
Alan Steinfeld
But you know, but the whole idea of investment, I mean, we’ll go into step part two. But the whole idea of investment also seems not related to this infinite possibility. Because investment to me, and I know it’s a limited way, means that there’s a limited amount of resources. I mean, that’s how I’m interpreting it. That doesn’t mean what it is. And if it’s limited, then it can’t be infinite. And I know there’s something about us that’s infinite. Do you know what I’m saying here?
Jason Voss
Yeah, I do. I think headlong, there are two philosophies, you know, colliding, right? So far, you’ve I could tell that you like to that one of the ways you think about the world is in terms of continuums, right? And so they’re things.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, you brought it up. And I agree with you. Yes. Yes.
Jason Voss
Yeah, yeah, things naturally have an opposite, right? To define a thing and to draw a fence around it, a mental fence around it, if you will, naturally says it’s not these other things, right? So that’s that’s actually principle two, interestingly enough, paradox. And that’s, you know, that’s paradoxical consciousness. When you start to try and step things down, you try and understand them. You take them from this infinite sort of beingness, if you will, and you try and step it down to understanding into the left brain, the intellectual mind, you end up with these paradoxical things. So all of these things seem paradoxical, but only when you’re talking about them with a left brain understanding. So again, you’ve highlighted two colliding versions of the universe. And one of them is finite resources, which is the logic and philosophy first proposed by the, they didn’t call themselves economists, but it’s Adam Smith. It’s Thomas Malthus, famous for the Malthusian doctrine, for example. And all of these thinkers saw finite resources and they saw finite limitation for humanity. And they thought that, hey, let’s construct a philosophy around that, which grew into economics. You know, I’m not sure I believe that. I absolutely understand what you’re saying. I mean, for God’s sake, I was an investor for a number of years. And you know, I have a checkbook and it has a fixed and finite number in the bank account. So I understand what you’re saying. But the investing, the way I tend to think about it is, are you making choices that are in accord with reality? This is the bottom line. And the reason I redefine investing in my book was not to be tricky or to avoid the question. It was to point out to people that investing can be a spiritual activity as well. And that for me it was when I was a professional, I really believed that. And it’s a pathway to personal growth. Because if we’re here to learn, which I think we are, and effects follow causes, investing provides a natural avenue for that process. And you might do some good in the meantime. So you and I have talked down before about what that looks like. And ideally, the function of investing, right? Not the profession of investing, not the trappings of investing, which include IRAs and currency fluctuations, and you know, all that very bizarre kind of stuff. What it really is about is people who have excess resources but a deficit of good ideas for what to do with it try and find people who have a surplus of great ideas, but maybe a deficit of capital or money to be able to make those ideas happen. And the process of financing matches those two people’s wants and needs and puts them together in a relationship hopefully for the betterment of all, right? And ultimately, that could be about conservation, right? It could be finding a way to do something that humans require, like delivering fresh water to a home, but finding a way to do that in a better way. And that’s ultimately what investing is about.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I agree with that form of investing. It’s kind of a way of from what you’re just saying there, kind of a way of moving infinite resources around so everyone can benefit. But the investing that I’ve grown up with and have shied away from and is the part of it that seems like gambling on one hand and on the other hand it seems like it’s not spiritual because there’s a limit on it. I guess I asked that before. So those two, you know, am I gambling for my resources and am I thinking that I’m not infinite, you know? I mean, I’m not arguing with you as so much as really wanting to understand and at least break my patterns of thinking of how I look at it. But I’m telling you where I’m coming from, you know?
Jason Voss
Yeah, sure. Yeah, if I’m understanding you correctly, you have some doubts that any good can come of it, that it’s kind of a superfluous and materialistic endeavor, and you’ve got some.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah. And if there is some good that comes to us, someone else must be losing. You know, which is not fun either. You know? If I’m making money on my investment, someone must be losing on their investment. At least that’s the old way of looking at it, you know?
Jason Voss
Well, I mean, again, you and I have talked about this and here I risk alienating some of your audience only because of the jargon, not because of the sentiment. The stock market that we all are familiar with, say the Dow Jones Industrial Average, the New York Stock Exchange, the Nasdaq, et cetera, those are so called secondary markets. Those are used markets, if you will, as opposed to new markets, right? They’re new markets for clothes, they’re used markets for clothes, you know, like goodwill. Well, secondary markets are just used markets for stocks. That is a zero sum game. In the same way that they are for clothing as well. So Goodwill is a zero sum game. Somebody gave up their clothing and you take it, but few would say that that was a bad exchange. And Goodwill charges a transaction for that, right? Somebody has donated something and they get a tax break for their donation and Goodwill charges sort of a finder’s fee. We’ve provided a convenient location for you to come get your clothes. Right. But when you introduce the stocks, especially in a spiritual community, they have an issue with that or bonds or mutual funds or some other financial asset, but it’s exactly the same activity. Somebody finds no more use for the business that they’ve invested in. They offer it up for sale through a secondary market. The goodwill, if you will, which is the New York Stock Exchange or the Nasdaq or whatever stock market you’re talking about. Somebody buys it. It’s exactly the same process. Um, in that way, it’s zero sum. Um, but at the, at the primary level, what they call the primary markets, and this is the other piece of jargon. There’s primary and secondary markets. Primary markets are exactly as I described. Somebody who has excess capital or excess money and they don’t know what to do with it. And but they, meaning they don’t have a good idea. And they can find, you know, somebody who has a great idea, but a deficit of capital. And with that endeavor, and that action, they can change the world. And going back to the, so that’s the primary market, which is very interesting and very, very obviously in alignment with spirituality and personal growth and some of the themes we’ve been talking about. In that secondary market realm, it’s less obvious. But I would argue that the person at Goodwill who gets the sweater that the other person didn’t want, you know, from a very cynical point of view, you could look at that as zero sum. But you could also look at it as somebody no longer needed something and they offered it up for sale to somebody else. And, you know, an eBay is, you know, another secondary market for used goods. And yet we don’t take issue with it. But the spiritual community, I think because they see a taint in money and motive, taint the activity and function of investing. But the two are different things, right? You can have a person of character acting with, you know, uh, using the function of investing quite, quite ethically. Just as you can have an unethical charity.
Alan Steinfeld
Right.
Jason Voss
Yeah, I see the real issue here is character, not really the function.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. Because it actually is an act of empowerment to, I mean, I think this is what you’re saying, to invest in something or somebody and say, you know what, I’m with you. I like what you’re doing. I like your ideas. I’m going to help make this possible because this is what I believe can help the world. I mean.
Jason Voss
Correct. And we might both benefit. And so so that what you just said though, I’d like to put you on hold there for two seconds. You know, the way investing is normally done is not that way. You know, I do not think that the investment business is populated with a coterie of, you know, ethical, you know, high minded people. I wrote the book The Intuitive Investor in part because I saw an opportunity for the way people make decisions to be a pathway towards one personal growth, but two, a spiritual development and a way to make the world a better place. But it required that people bring their consciousness in accord with reality. And so if you do that successfully, and that’s really the principal task of an investor, right? And it’s also the principal task of a spiritual seeker is you want to have your consciousness as in accord with, as harmonizing with reality as is possible. Which is the power of now that Eckhart Tolle talks about, and so many of the great spiritual traditions talk about. Well, that’s exactly what leads to success as an investor. Um, and then after that, say you’re, you’re so fortunate to have brought your consciousness in accord with reality and you’re seeing reality for what it really is and the fabric of the universe and whatever, then you have to be decisive with that knowledge. And that’s a separate problem that I also talk about in the intuitive investor, but this is how investing can be a spiritual endeavor is, and a vehicle and an arena for personal growth.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, yeah, I’m getting it. And, I just wanted to get a little more practical. Did you ever see the show Shark Tank?
Jason Voss
I have not. I’m not a big TV watcher, but tell me about it.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, it’s where these rich guys sit around and someone comes and presents them with an idea and, you know, someone say, you know, I have this new idea for scotch tape or something like sometimes it’s ridiculous. Sometimes it’s like, you know, a new and improved handy wipe or it’s a, you know, it’s a new, it’s a new food source or something like that. But it’s a very popular show. And then they make proposals to these rich guys on the panel to invest in their company. And, you know, usually these investors want sometimes more than the person who’s created these products is willing to get but then, you know, they’ll say, well, we’ll give you this much if you give us this much percentage of the company. And it just seems like that kind of investing, which I guess is a lot of how it happens, is sort of a struggle. It’s not, I mean, it’s sort of a battle to maintain. And I do, and this happens in my own company, where people wanted parts of my new realities that this is what they put in. So I, you know, I don’t want to be at war with the world. I want to be at harmony and flow. And is there a way of investing where it is a win-win for everybody? I guess you’ve kind of been saying that. But do you know? I mean, it’s like, you’re, I’m putting energy into something and I am, you’re benefiting, I’m benefiting, and everyone who’s like gets this new service is benefiting. But I think I’m just asking, is there a way where it doesn’t have to be so hard or maybe it’s not hard, but I see it as a sort of a difficult road. Maybe that’s just how I’m seeing it, but do you know where I’m coming from?
Jason Voss
Yeah, I mean, again, it sounds like if I’m if I’m understanding you correctly, you’re talking when you use the imagery tug of war, again, you’re seeing a conflict between buyer and seller. And I think what you’re really talking about and what seems to disturb you is that there seems to be an asymmetry that some people are winners, some people are losers.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes, exactly.
Jason Voss
Yeah, I mean, that that’s a tricky thing. And it’s it’s tricky maybe for a reason that that maybe the audience hasn’t considered. It’s tricky because there’s a there’s a conceit there, and that’s a fatal conceit as far as I can tell, which is that some one person has the absolute transparency and understanding of how both people benefit or lose in a transaction. So going back to the, you know, you sell your sweater, offer up your sweater to charity to goodwill. And somebody else comes along and buys it. You know, depending on the context of the observer, they may absolutely see that the person who gave up their sweater lost because the person who buys it at goodwill for the the cheaper price, where the first person bought the sweater for much more money. They see the benefit and the big smile on the face of the person who got the sweater and they see tragedy. Right. They think, oh my goodness, this person is absolutely literally pulled the wool over, you know, somebody else’s eyes. Right. Whereas somebody looking at the transaction from another side, with another context, says, Oh, no, that absolutely benefited both parties. So I, you know, I, I just can’t, I can’t address the question because I can’t address everybody’s context and what their preferences are. My preference is as an investor to look for opportunities in which the the greater good is served. And by greater good, I’m including myself in that. That’s my principle one of infinity, which is I’m a part of the totality, as is everybody else. And if I’m making decisions where there’s mutual benefit, I, I tend to think that those are good decisions. The second thing I wanted to say about this, because this is an important thing. You know, part of spiritual development is this is this is I’ve dealt with this question many times as a teacher of meditation, too. People have a deep seated preference that the world looks a particular way, right? Then that way is peace and harmony and delight and, you know, maybe it’s, it’s whatever, whatever people’s preferences are. I tend to think that life is much more like surfing than it is like, you know, going to the candy store and getting all the candy, which I think is the the former category. You know, sometimes when you’re surfing, you fall off the board, but you learn how to be a better surfer from it. Um, you, you can’t determine the waves, but you can determine how you deal with the waves. And investing is a lot like that, too. And so my point is is that sometimes you’re going to lose, right, in investing, but to judge it that as a bad experience and while, and to label it as that, I think misses the point of this wonderful opportunity to gain transparency or insight into how the world is really operating and really working. Um, and so take it out of the realm of investing, you know, that we tend to think of capital and money and just take the value judgments that exist in the spiritual community around around that and instead talk about an investment of, you know, in your most intimate relationship, that could be with an employer or an employee, it could be with a spouse, a brother, a sister, whatever the relationship is. Um, sometimes, you know, they hurt your feelings because they tell you the truth, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t value to to that experience. It doesn’t mean that it wasn’t sort of intended. And it’s attachment that creates oftentimes the abrasion, the sense of an abrasion. So, now, scale that back up and let’s go back to the realm of investing in capital, the way we tend to think of it. Who’s to say what people really experience? Um, and is how how can we definitively say that there’s abrasion? So that’s that’s my question for the audience. So,
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah. If somebody states that they’re experiencing abrasion, that’s a different thing, but I think it that whole line of thinking assumes that somebody knows what’s right and that somebody is me. And I, I don’t know that I know that. I really don’t. Well, you know, I appreciate that. It’s a really honest personal expression. And I appreciate you coming from that, because you’re not coming off as like, you know, which a lot of you know, you talk to investment people and I mean, I want to get beyond this in this discussion, but you talk to a lot of investment people and they they come off as if they know and sometimes you know, sometimes you don’t know, sometimes. And I think this is where the intuitive part goes, you follow what your your intuition tells you, what your feelings tell you. But there’s one place you address how do you get over the fear? So let’s say you wanted to invest, but you, you know, maybe this is a small fortune that you’ve accumulated over years of putting it away and there’s an opportunity for an investment. And yet the fear says, you know, if I put all my money in there, I’m going to lose it all. Or, you know, and I’ve worked so hard for. There’s that fear sometimes on the other side of an investment. How do you help people through those situations?
Jason Voss
Yeah, thanks, Alan. Yeah, this is this is a critical question because, again, if the job of the investor or the spiritual seeker is to bring their consciousness into accord with reality, to to minimize distortion. Um, what that means is you you can’t have emotions, uh, clouding your vision. Um, and I I tend to think of emotions and I write about it in the intuitive investor that emotions are a sensation experienced, um, but immediately related to a preference of some sort. So I give the example in the book of, uh, your, you want to go for a walk. You have an intuition of, hey, it would be great to go outside and go for a walk. Um, and here in New York City today, um, for example, it was really, uh, rainy, uh, in the evening and the question, uh, you look at the thermometer and the thermometer says it’s, you know, 40 something degrees Fahrenheit and it’s going to rain an inch in the next hour or whatever. Notice I haven’t added any value judgments. I’ve intentionally chosen language that’s temperature or whatever.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, you made an observation without evaluation, yes.
Jason Voss
That that’s correct. There may be people though in the audience who have immediately jumped the gun and said, oh, that sounds like a miserable moment to go for a walk, right? Because oh, it’s it’s 40 and 40 when it’s raining is miserable, especially in New York City, which is a concrete wasteland, and, you know, there’s there’s no trees and grass or whatever. But then there may be other people in the audience saying, um, I love those kinds of walks. You know, New York and the rain is beautiful. I had an experience like that once when I was 23 and it was great. Either way, it’s taking you out of the moment. Um, it’s
Alan Steinfeld
It’s putting a value on it, yeah.
Jason Voss
Yeah, out of a sensation, felt. And the felt is the intuition. So anyway, with the fear, fear and anxiety, I make a distinction in the book. Anxiety, I don’t think is a um, the distinction between fear and anxiety for me is anxiety is the kind of thing we’ve just been talking about, which is a sensation experienced, um, but related to something else. So that sensation may be your intuition says, hey, be cautious here, and you then you immediately jump without really sort of realizing it with any sort of awareness. Um, the last time I did something like this, say invested in, um, the XYZ company, um, which I’ve just invented. The XYZ company, um, you know, I got burned. And that’s anxiety. Fear on the other hand, I would say is a pure clear communicative signal of, oh my god, I have to pay attention here. There’s something noteworthy. And it’s actually a stark reality, uh, consciousness. And some people have experienced this probably who are listening to us. Um, if they’ve unfortunately been in a car accident and everything has slowed down and it it’s they people report, for example, in a car accident, I don’t know how, but I took my seat belt off as the, you know, ceiling of the or the roof of the car was being crushed and I ended up in the back seat and the whole thing seemed to have taken hours. That state of consciousness is a fear state of consciousness. And I I teach people in the book to be able to tell the difference. If you’re in fact experiencing that, and I’ve only ever experienced that real fear a couple times in my life, that is a sense, um, from your intuition that you should absolutely pay attention to. If on the other hand, you find yourself relating an experience a sensation rather to experience that that has nothing to do with the present moment, in all likelihood that’s anxiety. And so there are exercises I share in the book about how you can overcome that anxiety. Um, but I I think that anxiety is a very deleterious emotion when it comes to investing, as well as in spirituality.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, you know, they call what you’ve just described in remote viewing, which is sensing things at a distance, the difference between a signal and a noise. The signal is truly the target you’re looking for, and the noise is what your mind creates and interprets around it. It’s also what a lot of psychics do. They get information and then they interpret it based on their own experience. But if you just get the sense, the feeling, that’s the signal. And I think that’s really what you’re saying here, tune to the signal and don’t let the, the the the old stuff override some basic intuitive sense.
Jason Voss
Yeah, that’s exactly right. You summarized it better than I did. Thank you.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I’ve been practicing that. And I’m also teaching people remote viewing in the sense of, and I guess it’s sort of what you’re doing. You’re teaching people how to intuitively feel what the situation is. And let’s talk about that then, this creative aspect that you talk about in the book. How creativity is really an essential part of this. So yeah, talk about how you define that and how you use creativity in these kind of circumstances.
Jason Voss
Yeah, you bet. Um, all of these things, the intuition, the creativity, powers of manifestation, which is also a theme in the book, they, they really are all entered most naturally through what I’ll call a meditative state of consciousness. And this is sort of that, that unity from that unitary consciousness, where the, the apparatus of the ego sort of disappears and recedes in the background and you’re, you’re experiencing signal. So within that framework and that understanding, what what’s creativity? Well, I, I tend to think there are a couple of forms of creativity. Um, and I think it’s one of the most misunderstood topics that’s, that’s sort of part of the popular culture. It’s become sort of archetypal. People say, Oh, I have a friend, she’s really creative. But what they’re really saying is that maybe she plays guitar or sings in the opera, or maybe in fact that she, she, um, you know, is conventionally creative in the way that we normally think of it. Maybe, you know, she she paints well or whatever. But that’s not really creativity, uh, per se, those are creative activities. The activity is the result, though, of the creative process. So what is the creative processes? Really that the essence of it. And I tend to think that.
Alan Steinfeld
I just want to also say that I think we’re all creative. You wake up in the morning, you put on a shirt and clothes, you know, you have some sense, you know, everything that comes out of your mouth is an expression of creativity. I think creativity is under valued and, you know, it’s everywhere. It really, truly, truly is. So anyway.
Jason Voss
Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. You’re the first person I’ve talked to ever, actually, who agrees with me. I, all of this is creative endeavor.
Alan Steinfeld
Absolutely. There are moments when you get visions or downloads or whatever you want to call it, where, you know, time sort of stops and you are in a sense someone’s giving you dictation in your head and that’s like a creative epiphany. But, you know, that’s, you know, but each moment can be lived that way in a sense. You know.
Jason Voss
Totally agree. Totally agree. So the forms of creativity that I talk about in the book, there are a couple. One is what I’ll call permutations, right? This is where, um, something that you experience, you you have a a aha moment. That aha moment is you connecting together different parts of your knowledge that you never connected before. So it could be that you, you know, you’re in therapy, for example. And your therapist says something to you like, you know, why, why do you let, you know, so and so talk to you that way? You know, maybe the next time that that happens, you indicate that you that person is bothering whatever. And while you’re revisiting whatever your therapist has shared with you, your spiritual, uh, you know, teacher or whomever, you know, is related this piece of wisdom to you, you immediately recognize, oh my God, I’ve been repeating this pattern my entire life. I would call that a, an indication, or a, that’s a creative process that you’ve gone through there. You’ve connected desperate pieces of information in a way that you never did before for new insight. The other form of creativity, which you, you sort of alluded to there, is that total eureka moment by which you have instantaneous transmission of the truth from, from whence who knows where it comes. I mean, I have my own suspicions. But it, it’s not necessarily, uh, related to any real knowledge you have at the time. And I’ll give you an example. Isaac Newton, who, uh, among describing his, you know, for emotions, he also invented the mathematics of calculus, is, reportedly he, he had a flash, an immediate creative insight or an intuitive insight, if you will, into, uh, what the calculus was, but it took him two years to develop the mathematics to describe it. So that, that creativity, uh, which is the radical context break as opposed to within context, is also a form of creativity. And both forms are valid, and both of them are facilitated by meditative states of consciousness.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah. Let’s talk about, uh, I guess we can also get into meditation, uh, in general. Uh, getting to those states of consciousness, to be intuitive, to access our innate creative essence is practicing those states of this, of these alternate consciousness that that is so accessible to us once we just choose to focus on that. You know? Talk about the different states, yeah. And meditation.
Jason Voss
Well, well, you know, there, I, I’m not quite sure what you’re, you’re after there. But.
Alan Steinfeld
No, what I’m after is, um, you know, we have an ordinary state of consciousness, you know, that puts us in a beta state, if you want to call it that. And then we have these, these altered states that tap us into other realms of being. And that’s sort of what meditation does. And we really, um, in some sense, live more in that world than we do in this, um, left-brain world. I guess I guess we can talk about it in that terms, left and right brain, even.
Jason Voss
Oh, yeah. Yeah. If you’re talking about, um, you know, the different meditative states.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes.
Jason Voss
Yeah, I mean, you and I’ve talked about this again, Alan, you know, offline. Um, there really literally thousands of of pathways to to that state of consciousness. Um, so to to generalize them sort of diminishes and and does a disservice to the estates, but nonetheless, I’m going to do it anyway.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, well, okay.
Jason Voss
Um, you know, there there are three main forms of meditation. Um, there there’s focused like a pointed focus. Um, so that’s like a a mantra meditation or a meditation where you focus on your breath. And the idea there is by focusing on one activity, a couple of things happen. One, you you gain the ability to re-control or take the power back from what what, you know, many meditators call the monkey mind. So you gain a certain discipline. The other thing it does and, you know, sweeping the floor, doing the dishes are other forms of meditation. In fact, some of my favorites, that’s a focused meditation as well. What, what it also has the benefit of doing is giving the left brain something to focus on that’s slightly different enough that it occupies itself so that that witness consciousness, that meditative consciousness, that heightened state of awareness can come to the fore of our awareness, where so frequently for many people it’s kind of hidden in the background. It’s there patiently waiting. It’s kind of like a timeless consciousness. It’s waiting for the sort of monkey mind to sort of settle itself down. So focused awareness is one. The the next is like a open awareness as opposed to focused awareness. An open awareness is that takes the form of like a traditional mindfulness practice. And that’s one where you, you just notice the thoughts as they arise in your mind. And you don’t judge them, you just sort of notice them. Some practices suggest you label them so that you can begin to map the mental states that you hit every day. So you might be sitting in meditation, you know, in your meditative repose, you know, on your zafu and zabuton, because you have the, you know, all modern activities have the, you know, the proper equipment. Um, anyway, so you might be sitting there and a thought that may arise is, hey, tomorrow when I get to work, I’ve got to send that email to somebody. Right. And rather than judging it and experiencing the emotions of that and taking it personally and then going way off track, you simply notice, acknowledge the thought. You might label it email, right? Or you might label it for tomorrow or something along those lines. And then you let it go. And then you continue to track your mind wherever it goes. And you’re actually instead of redirecting your mind to a focus, you’re doing that. The third principal form of meditation is, um, it’s like a it’s like creative visualization. There’s not really a good secular description of it. Um, the people who practice it in a non-secular, in a truly spiritual way call it deity yoga, which is where you’re attempting to harmonize with something else so that you become that thing. So you might do a meditation where you focus on White Tara, for example. And White Tara has certain characteristics that you try and emulate. And so you’re meditating on on the characteristics of White Tara so that you can understand it and hopefully, if you can enter a surrendered meditative state, you take on the qualities of White Tara and they become inculcated into your, your personality and your being. So how does all this relate back to investing? Um, the states of consciousness that we’ve been talking about, I would label that that focused awareness as well as the open awareness, uh, as like paradoxical states of consciousness. Um, they’re they’re ones where there’s a separation in your mind between the meditative state and and the sort of normal waking state of consciousness. You you gave you described it with brain waves. And the harmonization consciousness, which is my principle three in my book is really like the deity yoga. And the, and that’s where you’re trying to harmonize with the qualities of something to to become it. How do you relate that to investing? Well, if you’re trying to understand a decision you’re about to make, go back to school, take a new job, move to another city, divorce the person you’re in a relationship with, marry the person you’re in a relationship with. Whatever your big investment decision is, and notice I’ve removed it from the realm of money again because I tend to think of it that way, you begin to harmonize with it. You make a choice at the outset, which is the action realm of consciousness, my principle four, where effects fall across it. You make a choice, that’s the realm of choice. I choose something knowing there are consequences. So you choose something, then you choose to harmonize with it, like ah, I want to understand this decision as closely as possible. I have to become one with it. I really need to surrender to this thing. There’s gonna be a moment where you and the object of that you’re trying to understand are separate. That’s principle two paradox. Principle one infinity, ideally you eventually merge with that thing and you get the, a, the meditative understanding. Notice that the four principles of consciousness I’ve described are the very states of meditation that you enter into, but run in reverse.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. So. No, I just wanted to get. So I don’t think I integrated the first state. The second stage is sort of being the observer. The third type of meditation is being merging with essences or the divinity. But the first phase I didn’t quite get. Can you repeat that first part of medication?
Jason Voss
Yeah, sure. We began the interview talking about how you could integrate spirituality with the material world. And I’d said that, you know, they, I started with principle one because it’s infinity. So by definition, it encompasses everything, including, you know, people’s bad behavior and, you know, unfortunate consequences. Um, but then principle four, we talked about, which I said is for me, I call it the action principle. It’s the state where you make choices and they’re consequences. I said effects follow causes. So at the outset, with meditation, you have to make a choice. And you said it yourself, you said, you choose to enter, you know, practice meditation. You can’t avoid choice at the outset. Um, that’s, that’s a peculiarly human thing. We have to choose. And I would argue ultimately that the real destination of a spiritual practice is to, uh, lose your choices, that you’re just surrendered and so you’re, you’re in a natural state of harmony with the universe and there is no, that your choice and the universe’s choice are the same. Um, but that’s, I mean, I haven’t achieved that. I’ve had moments of achieving that.
Alan Steinfeld
Is that the first level of, first type of meditation then you’re saying, that kind of being at one, that harmony with creation?
Jason Voss
Uh, what was, what I was explaining is that, you know, the, these states of consciousness we all experience, right? So we all have the material world that we’re experiencing. You and I are having this conversation, um, back and forth, and you know, I’m listening to you, and you’re listening to me, and the audience is listening. That’s sort of principle four, right? That’s the extra principle effects causes. So I say something, that causes you or leads to an effect, and that effect is you respond in a particular way, what have you. But then there’s the harmonization state. And you and I, I think, and I can feel it, um, have experienced the harmonization state several times where we’re both sympatico and we totally understand what’s happening. That’s another state of consciousness. Then there’s a paradoxical one, which is where you’re trying to define something and a couple times in the conversation you were talking about this paradoxical thing where you’re like, well, I get what you’re saying Jason about infinite consciousness but investing to me looks like you know it’s about materialism and blah blah. Um, and then principle one infinity is the other state of consciousness. If you run those backwards you have a state that’s the meditative process. Principle four is you choose to do something, which is three harmonize with something I’m trying to understand which then leads into principle two. I’m not going to understand it at first. My my left brain’s gonna be fighting with my right brain. Uh the left brain is very analytical it tries to define things it tries to step them down into limited understanding single pointed understanding. Um the right brain resists and says no it’s so much bigger it’s so much grander and when the two merge and the left brain and right brain sort of surrender to one another then you have principle one infinity. So what I was saying is that your question about meditation um is about states of consciousness. And it’s a process of scaling up through these different states of consciousness ultimately to connect with something at the end. And so as it relates to investing, this is exactly the same process you’re trying to go through. You find yourself in a material world, you’re trying to understand what to do with your life, what to do with the limited resources at your disposal. Um, you try and seek to understand it through through harmonization. Like I’m trying to understand this investing thing that this guy Jason Voss is talking about, I’m trying to understand his book, I’m trying to harmonize with him, but I’m experiencing paradox. I don’t quite understand quite what he’s doing. I’m not quite in sync with what he’s thinking about. That’s principle two paradox. Aha, I got it. Principle one, I understand. So all of these things are interrelated with one another. And so you can’t escape like this the spirituality and the investing, they’re all the same thing.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I want to address particularly the, I think it was number two, where, you know, you’re watching the thoughts, oh, you’re supposed to send someone an email. Now, if we can do that, if we can be the observer of our thoughts, which I think is principle two, then we realize that we’re not our thoughts and we’re not the, um, programmed impulses of reaction either. We’re the, um, the infinite observer, if you want to call it that. We’re the being that stands outside of time, outside of space, outside of cause and effect, outside of investment, even. We are the observing consciousness. And we, when we go deep enough into meditation, at least that’s my experience. We, we realize that all these actions were aspects of a personality that’s just limited in time and space, but that’s not really who we are. And in a sense, investment or non-investment or maybe investing in, in those states itself seems like the only goal. You know what I’m saying? The ultimate.
Jason Voss
I absolutely do. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you 100%.
Alan Steinfeld
So where does, if you reach those states, where does investment and business and all that fit in? Because you’re teaching this to businessmen. And if they reach that state, I mean, maybe they realize they don’t need the business or, you know what I’m saying. So how do you, I guess it’s that same question I asked in the beginning. How do you bridge that infinite state of consciousness with the limited finite world that’s, that’s looking for meaning and investment and business and opportunity and all that, where in an essence, it really doesn’t mean anything?
Jason Voss
Well, it it does, though. Um, that infinite state of consciousness includes those, the fumbling and the tragedies and the glories, and it includes the petty pursuits, and it includes the epiphanies, and it it includes all of those things. And you can, you can only see them as separate if there’s a value judgment involved there. And what I’m saying is that that principle one consciousness, that infinite consciousness, that that that state of oneness, it it doesn’t exclude those those experiences. It doesn’t because it doesn’t include those those, it simultaneously includes and doesn’t include those judgments. So the activities and the endeavors of people are just as perfect at the same time they’re imperfect. And that this sounds bizarre, and this is, you know, it sounds like a a koan that I’m talking about here.
Alan Steinfeld
No, I get it.
Jason Voss
That’s the nature of that, that’s the nature of that state of consciousness.
Alan Steinfeld
It doesn’t really sound like a koan. I think what you’re saying, and and you could say it in what I would say is that, um, God, if you want to call it God, is all things. It’s the good, the bad, the ugly, the loss, the gain, the comedies, and tragedies. It’s it’s all those things. And to get a really infinite, um, view of the source, which is why we incarnated into these bodies in the first place, is to watch it all, to see it all, to experience it all. And exactly.
Jason Voss
Exactly right.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah.
Jason Voss
Yeah, and so the reason I wrote wrote this book, The Intuitive Investor, is because the, I realized in my investment career that the skills that made me a successful investor were identical with the skills that make you a, a spiritual seeker, you know, a more successful, I hope, successful seeker.
Alan Steinfeld
Explain that. Explain what you mean like that, by that. That statement, that the skills that you had as an investor makes you the same as a seeker. Yeah.
Jason Voss
Yeah. It’s the same thing that makes it’s the same thing that makes for a successful painter, or a successful dancer, or a successful spouse, or, you know, in a in a tantric state with your partner. Um, it it you’re you’re.
Alan Steinfeld
What is that? What’s the secret?
Jason Voss
Yeah. The secret is to harmonize with reality. Um, and not not sort of be out of harmony. It’s to be in lockstep. It’s to be surrendered. It’s to be um, experiencing simultaneity with with the moment. Um, it’s being in the present state of awareness. Uh, these disciplines are all united. And that’s why when we began the interview, I I made sure to define investing as simply to make conscious decisions. And by conscious, I don’t mean limit to consciousness. I mean just, you’re making decisions which you can’t escape um in the material realm. Um, unless you’re in that one-pointed state, but you still chose to get there. Uh, unless you have a really stabilized term meditation, which I’ve never met a person who has that. And I’ve I’ve, you know, I’ve met Amma, for example, who many people hold up as a saint, and you know, even she says that some.
Alan Steinfeld
Even she says what? No, what were you saying? Even she says what? No, I want to hear.
Jason Voss
Even she says, you know, there are times when she feels, you know, out out of touch, you know, with with God. So that we’re talking about a very rarefied state of consciousness here where the a person is, you know, 100% of their time completely in alignment with with that that sort of universal consciousness. But anyway, go go ahead.
Alan Steinfeld
No, no, what I think you’re saying before you you said that stuff about Amma is that you know, is that we are in this world to take action. It’s what Krishna says to Arjuna on on the battlefield in the Bhagavad Gita and he says, you know, any action I take will have consequences, Arjuna says, and and um, it’s like, you know, he says it’s like killing my enemies will have its karmic consequences. And then, you know, I think Krishna says, you know, we’re here to take action, we’re here to be in the world, and we’re here to create cause and effect, have consequences, but let’s take the best action possible, and, and sometimes.
Jason Voss
Exactly.
Alan Steinfeld
But we’re here to take action in this we’ve incarnated to take action.
Jason Voss
You just nailed it. That’s the Intuitive Investor. So that skill set that you just described is universal. And it’s timeless. And it’s the same skill set that makes you a great investment decision maker in the realm that most people think of as investing, which is money and capital. Um, and so I wrote the Intuitive Investor because I realized that that was the end goal. And it’s the same goal. And you you raised a very interesting point that we didn’t explore earlier, which is what if you teach a business person to do this and they walk away from their career? Well, I would say hallelujah. Not because they made a choice that I I myself made, but hallelujah, if in fact, that’s what’s in their best interest. Um, if that’s what there is best for their spiritual growth, and that that choice is in accord with who they are, and what they feel in the very fiber of their being, I I think that that’s that’s a great choice. And that maybe the consequence, that maybe the investment choice they make is to walk away from it all. Maybe it’s to sell all of your possessions and um, become um, you know, um, to to move to India or something.
Alan Steinfeld
To become a sadhu. Yes.
Jason Voss
Yes, exactly.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I appreciate you opening up that understanding of investment to much broader than this money, economic, and, and seeing it as, as a spiritual choice even, even not doing something is an investment or a choice, you know? Uh, but, um, but could I mean, you mentioned it in the beginning of the show, I’m just interested if you care to share your personal story. What happened to you? What was the epiphany that you realized? I mean, I don’t know if you share this, but I would love to hear it that made you walk away and that made you come back. I mean, what happened in your life in that personal way?
Jason Voss
Well, thank you for asking the question. I I begin the book with this this story. Um, it was it was October 21st, 2004, and I was uh in New York. I spent my career in Santa Fe, but I was in New York to give a speech to uh the Union Bank of Switzerland’s uh top selling brokers of the mutual fund that I I managed. Uh, and I went to a cocktail mixer that evening, and I I loathed it. I mean, it the those cocktail mixers were not my favorite uh professional endeavor activity. Um, and I decided to cut out a little bit early. I was only there for like 45 minutes. I decided to go back to my hotel room. Um, and for those of you who know New York City, it’s the Hilton on Avenue of the Americas where I was. And so I I went up into my hotel room, I and I started trying to visualize the the speech I was going to be giving the next day, and there was sort of a hint or a whisper, um, a kind of a force external to self that said, hey, come, come this way, you know, follow me. Um, and I decided to trust it. And I kept trusting it. And I kept getting deeper and deeper and deeper into um this deep meditative state. I’ve been I’ve been meditating since I was seven. Um, and this is one of the few times I’d ever had that kind of an experience where, you know, there was an invitation from something seemingly unrelated to me. To take it further and so I did, and I got this really profound vision of what the world looked like circa, I didn’t know. I knew it was within 10 years, but I didn’t know the exact timing of it, and that world looked like a financial collapse. It looked like, and would probably be real estate related. And that that by the way was a mental process. I was trying to relate this this sort of pure awareness to a mental process trying to map it. And I thought, okay, it’s got to be real estate, because I thought real estate was overvalued. Um, and I also got the sense of, um, hey, look, um, people get a vote. We all collectively get a vote. And what are you going to do? Um, and I I thought at the time, wow, you know, I’ve had a very high level of success. I have the ability to walk away from my career and do something else. And and, you know, this experience really suggested a couple of things to me. One, um, it was time to get in touch with my masculinity. Um, I was raised by a single parent mother. And, you know, that that’s not a criticism of her, but I didn’t have real good masculine, um, role models as a kid. So I thought, OK, that’s something that I I really need to focus on. And the second was to get over my fear of being alone. And that was sort of like the first milestones and guideposts on a spiritual path. The only way to make that happen was to retire from my career and walk away from uh the relationship that I was in at the time, which actually was not a bad relationship, but it to to accomplish that stuff was was not going to occur. So the epiphany was multi, you know, and I’m I’m trying to abbreviate it here because I realized we’re at the end of our time.
Alan Steinfeld
No, it’s okay. No, it’s okay. We can talk a little longer. I mean, we, I mean, we can go a little bit longer. We don’t have to finish right now because you can go into it. I mean, if you care to, you know, but I mean, I’m just. Yeah.
Jason Voss
Yeah, so, so the way, you know, I, I, I didn’t get real guidance in terms of how to interpret that particularly well. Um, I strongly, strongly indicated that those were really important for me to to learn and to to deal with. Um, and so I I retired from money management, took about nine months to unwind from my career because I had to find a successor because I wanted to responsibly pass, um, the responsibility for managing the fund, the mutual fund I managed to to somebody else so that I mean I had 15,000 investors. I didn’t want to, you know, just walk away because I had had this meditation. So it took nine months to sort of unwind from that. And then I went to go study martial arts um for a couple of years with a guy I had always wanted to study with. And uh because I was trying to also crystallize or make more material, make more real my meditation practice, um, to integrate it into my body, not just to to have this separate experience where, you know, my meditation is me sitting in a particular posture and I have this experience, but it’s unrelated to the movement of my actual body. Um, and uh, yeah, so, you know, many many years passed, you know, that was in 2005 that I actually retired, and I started writing the Intuitive Investor February 1st, 2008, after having had a uh, a vision that one of the places where I could apply leverage to to share what I knew, and also to to have a great effect, uh, was in the investment business. I I would put the legal profession and politicians in in the same category, you know, of needing, you know, people who have some awareness to show up. And I thought it was time for good people to do good things. And so I exited retirement. I now work for a non-profit that does financial education, and uh, you know, I’m I’m having these kinds of interviews and trying to promote meditation to the financial community, and hopefully to to get more of them to make more conscious, more more aware choices that factor in the rest of the world into their decision making.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, it sounds great. I think you’re really on track. I think we need a bridge like you because, uh, and you know, business has gotten out of hand. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, um, you know, it’s something seems off in, in that world. And, um, we need on a planetary level to come back into balance with business, with investment, with all the things that can humanize the world. And, you know, there’s nothing wrong with business. I mean, you have a good idea, you put it out there, people like it, um, and you change the world. Right. Apple computers, look at the, you know, the iPhone, all those things that started off as possibilities. I’m just talking about the modern ones have changed and made life better for us.
Jason Voss
Yeah, I I agree. I agree that it’s the business that again, as a function, um, is a an innate function. You know, we’re all, we’re all trying to get better or do better, um, and business is a as a facilitator of that, it helps make live lives more pleasant. I couldn’t agree with you more that it’s out of balance. And, and it needs to be rectified. And that that’s the subject maybe of another conversation because that’s a multi headed Hydra. Um, but quickly, I’ll say that, you know, the the, the rational determinists are not helping. Um, and the material realists are not helping. And economics or capitalism as, as the be all and end all of problem solving is not helping. It’s not intended to solve ethical problems, it’s intended to organize resources efficiently. And that’s it. So
Alan Steinfeld
So leave us with something that does help. Leave us with that, um, taste of where we can go on all those levels in a way that, you know, will uplift us, if you have anything.
Jason Voss
Yeah, I mean, I mean, it’s gonna sound cheesy, but I, you know, I would say, um, meditate and trust the experiences you have there. Um, I I dedicated my book to people who believe in their experiences above all else. And, you know, unequivocally stated, that’s my religion. And I I think that too often we question our experiences, and we overthink them, and we have anxieties about them. And so the intuition is squelched. So all of that to say, trust your intuition.
Alan Steinfeld
Uh, just one last question. So what do you want? Is there a thing for yourself? I mean, is there, I mean, it seems like you have a great relationship, you you’ve been successful in business, you know, you’re, you’re out, you know, speaking to the world and helping them up, open up. But what, what’s your personal path? Where what’s your next step for you? Just curious.
Jason Voss
Well, for me, what I’m what I’m working on spiritually is service. Um, and so, you know, I sign my emails frequently yours comma in service. And I I’ve tried to make it the central focus. And it’s, you know, it’s been a hard one for me. Um, and not just because I came from a business background that I I don’t mean it that way. Because I I didn’t think that I was a corrupted human being. So it’s not meant to be a countervailing weight against, you know, a lifetime of corruption or, you know, the Wolf on Wall Street kind of a thing. It’s just that that pure service, where the central focus, the the happiness and the joy that comes from serving, and the the vehicle that I know best and Alan, you said it, you know, I’m aware that I could be a bridge, uh, between two seemingly, um, estranged communities, the spiritual community and the business community. And so it seems like a natural place to to try and serve. And I’m I’m trying.
Alan Steinfeld
But is there anything you want for yourself? I know you want to serve, but what do what do you, I mean, if you want to share, anything you feel you need or want to accomplish or do for you? Just just for you. I’m curious in your process.
Jason Voss
Nah, that that that pretty much sums it up. I mean, that’s pretty good. Um
Alan Steinfeld
That is great, if that’s yeah.
Jason Voss
Yeah, I mean, I’ll say, you know, I you know, I’m married and I I’m I’m very much in love and you know, my my personal dream is to have launched uh meditation for um the the financial community and such that it has a momentum of its own and I can, you know, retire into obscurity again.
Alan Steinfeld
You really want to try retire into obscurity ultimately? Um, Sure. Because what do you get from obscurity? I mean, what what do you get from, I mean, what are you get there? I’m just curious what, what you get, you know, in that retirement? What what are you hoping to gain in that retirement?
Jason Voss
Uh, spend time with the person I love much more and, uh, get, you know, get to, get to sleep in every single day and to decouple, uh, one’s natural biorhythm from a clock and, uh, you know, all of those really beautiful kinds of things that that that I experienced when I uh, was in it, retired before.
Alan Steinfeld
I see. Well, good luck with that. You know, I appreciate what you’re doing. I hope you don’t retire too soon unless of course you want to. Um, um, and and, you know, enjoy because I think you have a great sense of both these worlds and um yeah, I think that’s rare. I mean, a lot of people talk about it and you know, a lot of people say they’re spiritual, but I think you’ve had real experiences in those internal states. And of course, you’ve had real experiences in the marketplace. So, um, usually it’s one, one or the other and it’s hard to find people that somehow have had them both in that way.
Jason Voss
Well, well thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I I I hope to serve, uh, as I said, as a bridge. You nailed it. That’s that’s really sort of what I’m after right now.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, thank you for taking the time here. I mean, I’ve been talking to Jason Voss, the Intuitive Investor. A radical guide for manifesting wealth, but it’s not just wealth. It’s it’s it’s your life. It’s investing in yourself in your in in who you are. Um, that’s what I would get the sense of here. You know?
Jason Voss
Yes, you’re correct. That’s exactly the point and the central theme.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. So how can people find you, reach you, discover you, uh
Jason Voss
Um lots of ways. JasonApolloVoss.com, Apollo like the the Greek God, uh Apollo. Um, which is in fact my middle name. That’s a question I frequently get. My mom’s a an ex hippy. Um. So JasonApolloVoss.com or you can follow me on Twitter. I tweet pretty frequently. I am @TheIntuitInvest. Uh and those are probably the easiest ways.
Alan Steinfeld
Uh huh. Oh, and TheIntuitiveInvestor.com is a website for you as well. And you give talks and workshops and lectures. You’re off to Asia in January, aren’t you? To uh.
Jason Voss
Uh to India and to Vietnam to talk to the investment community about the role of the right brain.
Alan Steinfeld
Can you give us a little taste of that? What is the role of the
Jason Voss
Uh, well the the our whole interview this evening has uh been this the subject matter. I’m going to be talking about um the importance of creativity and intuition and uh that meditation is the the vehicle to unlock those forces. Uh, and a natural consequence, by the way, of meditation is that people behave more ethically. There’s now scientific research that demonstrates that. So um, to an investment community uh you know, you get them with the catnip of the possibility of um greater investment success, um, but then you sort of in a back door way introduce this this practice which is demonstrated to make them more ethical.
Alan Steinfeld
Why do you think that is? That is a very curious observation.
Jason Voss
Uh because people who meditate can’t help but feel a greater sense of interconnection with their fellow human being such that when they’re making decisions, they consider the ramifications of those choices on those around them to a much greater degree. So they don’t, they don’t behave as selfishly.
Alan Steinfeld
That is I mean, I know you said a lot of interesting things, but that is like the most important thing I heard uh I mean, it was all good, but there’s something in that that I think goes back to kind of the integrity of the soul itself. And um, where’d you hear that?
Jason Voss
Uh, there are two pieces of research. One was published by MIT. Um, they have a neuroscience center up there. And the other piece of research uh, which just came out earlier this year, uh, it’s a co co-authored paper, and I don’t remember the other institution. I I apologize if anybody from the institutions out there, but um, it’s the University of Pennsylvania Wharton Business School and some other institutions, a co-created or co-authored uh, research study that they did. So there are now two papers that show that meditation leads to more ethical decisions.
Alan Steinfeld
Wow. That that’s there’s a real depth and um you know, uh spiritual um um meaning in that. But anyway, thanks. Thank you, Jason. It was really great. Uh let’s have lunch again soon if you’re around.
Jason Voss
Yes, I would love it. Alan, thank you so much for the opportunity to speak to your audience.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah. It’s been it’s been fun and I and I learn and I’m always learning and this was a great interview to learn more and um to to realize that um investment is in a sense what we’re here to do. Invest in ourselves, in the future, in others, in possibilities. Right?
Jason Voss
Yes, you’re correct. That’s exactly the point and the central theme.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. So I’ve been talking to Jason Voss, the Jason Apollo Voss, uh the Intuitive Investor. I’m Alan Steinfeld for New Realities. If you want to reach me, go to my website, newrealities.com. Email me at A, the letter A, at newrealities.com. Thanks for listening.
