New Realities recorded on September 11, 2007
Summary
In this episode of New Realities, host Alan Steinfeld speaks with Nouk Sanchez, co-author of the book “Take Me to Truth: The Undoing of Ego”. They discuss her personal spiritual awakening, her approach to true commitment beyond the ego’s expectations, the illusion of separation, and the process of moving from seeking enlightenment to truly finding it. The conversation concludes with details on Nouk’s upcoming workshops and events in New York.
Transcript
Alan Steinfeld
Welcome to New Realities with Alan Steinfeld. This program is dedicated to exploring new possibilities in a new world. It’s about bridging the spiritual and physical dimensions so we can really create a new society, a new world, a new planet, and a new reality. Throughout the series, I’ve had many guests speak on spiritual topics, on topics of integration of the third world into the modern world, on UFOs, on the evolution of consciousness. Tonight’s guest is someone who’s written a very interesting book called “Take Me to Truth: The Undoing of Ego.” It’s Nouk Sanchez from Australia, and she’s going to be talking about bridging that gap between seeking enlightenment and finding it. Nouk, are you there?
Nouk
I sure am, Alan.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay, is that a good introduction to you?
Nouk
That’s a wonderful introduction.
Alan Steinfeld
I mean, we had a very nice conversation a few weeks ago in preparation for this, and I really understood that you had a profound change in your own life a few years ago. You were searching for spirituality, looking to all the texts, and somehow you woke up to a new sense of yourself, to a new level of your own being. Can you just describe that awakening? Your personal awakening.
Nouk
Oh, okay. Yes. It’s been a long time coming. I began the spiritual trail. I began seeking probably about 28 years ago. And I was introduced to A Course in Miracles in 1990 and took it very seriously. I felt that it was a wonderful teaching or a wisdom teaching to lead us into true non-duality. It’s sort of a Western Advaita Vedanta.
Alan Steinfeld
This was in Australia that you found it. Did you search out a lot of other things before you found that?
Nouk
I did. I explored many forms of spirituality. Sort of embarrassing to say, but I’ve read well over 500 books so far.
Alan Steinfeld
I don’t think that’s embarrassing. I think that’s a great testament to your seeking.
Nouk
Thank you.
Alan Steinfeld
No, I’ve probably read just as many books. I think it’s great. I think that’s something you should be proud of actually. Of course you didn’t find the answer in the books.
Nouk
I didn’t. See, that’s the thing, is I was seeking, seeking, seeking, seeking. And it wasn’t until I began to practice the principles in A Course in Miracles seriously, which took a while, before I truly began to stop seeking and start finding.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, what was it that you did where you found?
Nouk
The biggest thing here is that it began with my relationship with my husband at the time. I will say at this point, the listeners might find this very interesting and very humorous as well, is that this book is written by myself and my co-author, who is my ex-husband. So we have written this book, “Take Me to Truth”, as a divorced couple. So we’ve written a book on spiritual awakening and finding real love and forgiveness, yet we’re divorced.
Alan Steinfeld
Did you divorce after you wrote the book or before you wrote the book?
Nouk
We wrote the book after we were divorced.
Alan Steinfeld
So was there some hard times though or was it?
Nouk
Oh yes. We went through hell and back.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, you did. Oh, yes, we sure did. Was this book a sort of healing for you both?
Nouk
Well, to be honest with you, Alan, the healing took place before we wrote the book together.
Alan Steinfeld
So did he have an awakening as well?
Nouk
He did. He did have an awakening. And the root, I guess the original birth of this awakening truly came from a commitment that he and I made in the year it was August of 1985. This is before we came to the Course in Miracles. We made a commitment to each other beyond the romantic commitment that most of us do. And we just truly, truly committed to loving each other no matter what, no matter who would come along in our relationship, no matter what would happen, we made a commitment to stick with each other. To the end.
Alan Steinfeld
Just stick with each other, you said?
Nouk
To stick with each other. That’s right. To stay with each other.
Alan Steinfeld
Even in divorce you would stay with each other?
Nouk
Okay. Now this is something we might talk about later, otherwise we might confuse listeners. Because I’ll be taking this up a level hopefully if we’ve got time.
Alan Steinfeld
We have as much time as you want.
Nouk
Oh, that’s wonderful. And what I’ll talk about later is not to mistake the form of a relationship with the content. Form and content are two completely different things. And so what the ego does is it truly takes the form of a relationship and says that’s what it is.
Alan Steinfeld
The form meaning marriage.
Nouk
That’s right. Or a de facto relationship. It doesn’t matter. The form of a committed relationship. It could be the form of the relationship could be between a parent and a child or a child and a parent, or it could be between two best friends or it could be between you and your boss. It’s the form of the relationship the ego takes it and makes something of it, which is always an illusion.
Alan Steinfeld
Let me just understand that for a second. So the form being, you have to have a type of relationship between a parent and child, it has to fit into a box, is that what you mean by form?
Nouk
That’s correct. Yes, Alan, that’s said beautifully.
Alan Steinfeld
And a true relationship could take on any form.
Nouk
Of course. It can take on any form once you’ve learned to truly commit yourself to the content of the relationship.
Alan Steinfeld
Now how do you define the content of the relationship?
Nouk
Well, that’s a big one. Okay. The content of the relationship is the commitment that you have. And this really can’t, I mean, you can’t truly know the extent of the commitment until you first make it. And it’s making the commitment to stick by that person even though the form of the relationship might change. So, say like what we’ve done, Tomas and I, is that we had a marriage and then we decided, well, put it this way, is in order to save our relationship we had to end the marriage. See how opposite this is to what the ego would say.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I understand what you’re saying though, I do.
Nouk
And then we really began to learn the true content of the relationship. That was.
Alan Steinfeld
Because you were stuck in a form, you’re saying?
Nouk
We were stuck in a form.
Alan Steinfeld
Now this content or commitment, I have a curious question. Don’t you have that same content or commitment with anyone you meet? Isn’t that part of what the course is about?
Nouk
That’s exactly right. That’s true. Yes, it is. But it’s usually with a significant other, whether it be with your romantic partner or whether it be with a child or a parent, it’s a significant relationship that presses your buttons the most.
Alan Steinfeld
But that’s where I have a problem with the course because I think everyone you meet that you’re totally present with can be that significant relationship, and should be.
Nouk
It should be. But I think a lot of people mistake it, Alan. They don’t, because most of the perception, most, and I’m speaking from my personal experience, and Tomas I’m sure would agree with me, and many other students of the course would agree, is that through the perception of the ego, we don’t really know what love is. We haven’t really got a clue what true love is. And we do mistake it as we go along. We’re not quite sure until we jump right into it and practice it. And I think quite a few core students have mistaken parts of the course. And that’s why we got together and wrote this book to try and clear things up and put it into simple terms and give people simple tools by which to meet with spirit on a daily basis through implementing these tools.
Alan Steinfeld
So then continue what happened to you in your progress and we’ll.
Nouk
Okay. Well, what happened was that we decided, as I said before, we truly decided to. What we wanted to do was end duality. This is about ending duality.
Alan Steinfeld
You and your husband.
Nouk
That’s right. Tomas and I wanted to end the idea of duality, of separation.
Alan Steinfeld
In your marriage.
Nouk
In the marriage. We made that commitment when we got married. Actually, we made the commitment before we got married, but yes. And then as I said before, the true commitment was to basically what it is in a nutshell is to see each other’s needs as not different or apart. Like to see Tomas’s needs as not different or apart from my own. And he did the same on the deepest, deepest of levels. We said that no matter who might come into the relationship, no matter what might occur to the relationship that we would take this to the end.
Alan Steinfeld
What does that mean to the end?
Nouk
And to the end meant, like I said before, is that we were committed to learning or to undoing the ego to escape from duality. And so what was brought in there was that we did need to end the form of the marriage because we were so caught up with the actual form of the marriage that we did need to actually let that go and then truly trust each other. And it’s a very scary thing, Alan. As you might know from relationships that you’ve been in to release somebody who you’ve had a huge history with. You’ve loved very much.
Alan Steinfeld
How long were you married?
Nouk
1986 till 1997 I think it was. 11 years.
Alan Steinfeld
So you both knew that even though you were studying the Course in Miracles and working on yourself that the relationship was keeping you trapped or the form?
Nouk
Was keeping us trapped. The form of the relationship. So we took each other for granted. And one thing I’ll say here is that, as the course explains, is that most of us, we don’t truly know love until we can start to undo the ego, which is the only block that we have to the awareness of love’s presence.
Alan Steinfeld
But I don’t really, I guess I’m one of those people don’t really know what love is now. Can you explain or maybe there’s no way to explain it? It’s just a feeling.
Nouk
Actually, I found that it’s not even a feeling, Alan. It’s a knowing. It’s a point of knowing and it’s beyond hope. It’s beyond, it’s beyond any limitations that we know. I thought I knew love. So did Tomas. But we didn’t really know love. Now we had to go through this entire sort of very radical experience, which I don’t think many others would need to go through. You don’t need to divorce in order to save a relationship.
Alan Steinfeld
But you did. You both felt like you did.
Nouk
We both did. But what I might just say here is that to give a little bit of background here is with the ego, the me that we think we are, okay? The I we think we are, is not the I we really are. Okay.
Alan Steinfeld
I understand that because I’ve worked with that and I’m sure a lot of people out there understand that the mind or some people call it the monkey mind is not is not who we really are.
Nouk
No.
Alan Steinfeld
We are the essence behind that mind.
Nouk
Exactly. We’re the observer some people can call in quantum physics terms.
Alan Steinfeld
The observer is a good term. I like to use that too.
Nouk
We are the, you know, Krishnamurti would often refer to himself as the speaker is saying, you know, but who’s the voice behind that speaker, you know? We’re the essence behind the ego. Yes.
Alan Steinfeld
So I understand what you say is the ego can’t love. I know what you mean by that because.
Nouk
And so that’s why we committed to learn. We first of all, we put our hand up and said, guess what, we don’t know what love is. We truly didn’t know.
Alan Steinfeld
When did you discover you didn’t know what it was?
Nouk
That would have been in 1990.
Alan Steinfeld
Did something happen in the relationship for you to.
Nouk
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I mean, a lot of things happened, Alan. We were the classic dysfunctional relationship. Two dysfunctional people getting together and there were all sorts of upsets in our relationship. There was.
Alan Steinfeld
Do you mean demands people place on each other?
Nouk
You know, the thing that I said to Tom is that, you know, you’ll, if you do what I want, then you’ll love me, you know. You love me if you’ll do what I want. That’s the unconscious.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s what you wanted. You wanted your needs met.
Nouk
I wanted my needs met. I wanted my needs met. And my need for what I thought love was, coming from the false identity. And he wanted the same. Now, when two people come together, and this is not nice, but I’m going to just say it, when two egos come together, and 99% of us are egos coming together whether we like it or not, when two egos come together in love, supposed love. What happens is there’s two egos meeting, each with an independent self-seeking goal. All right? Now the self-seeking goal comes from the ego. And that’s why so many relationships that are seem loving end in hate. Because in truth, we’re all one. Okay? And in truth, all that is God, whatever you call it, is love. That’s all there is, as far as we’re concerned, as far as the course is concerned, there is only one reality in this universe, and that’s love. Okay. Anything that is not love is an illusion.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay, but like you’re saying, we don’t know what love is, so how do we know what it isn’t?
Nouk
How do we know what it isn’t?
Alan Steinfeld
Well, how do we know what if there’s only love and we don’t know what that is, and everything is illusion, we don’t know what love is, how do we know what anything is, do you know what I mean?
Nouk
Well, that’s why we wrote the book. Because it’s a process, Alan. It’s a real process. And in the book there are six stages to the process.
Alan Steinfeld
How many?
Nouk
Six stages.
Alan Steinfeld
Six stages. But let’s go back to your match.
Nouk
Yes, well, there’s so much here.
Alan Steinfeld
No, because I’m trying to understand the kind of sequence of events that have led you to the undoing of the ego. Or as much as it’s been undone anyway.
Nouk
Okay. Well, Tomas and I, from our personal experience, you know, we had a pretty ugly time of it once the falling in love illusion fell away.
Alan Steinfeld
How long does that take usually when the.
Nouk
Usually it takes, well, it differs, but usually between six months and two years apparently, physically speaking.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s when the honeymoon is over, is it?
Nouk
That’s when the honeymoon the hormones wear off. Exactly. And then you look to your partner to fulfill your seeming needs, not knowing, most of us don’t know that those seeming needs are an illusion and that they come from the ego, the false self.
Alan Steinfeld
What would those seeming needs be, to like me, take care of me, to.
Nouk
Yes, to like me, take care of me, give me validation, give me approval.
Alan Steinfeld
All for the ego’s benefit.
Nouk
Oh yes, all these things because we never got this as children, we didn’t get this from our parents, our parents were coming from an ego so they couldn’t actually see us fully, right.
Alan Steinfeld
Right.
Nouk
So, you know, our deep needs, all of us, there’s not a human being on the planet alive that wouldn’t eventually admit to the to their deep need for being validation, being approved.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, but that’s just the need of the ego as you’re saying.
Nouk
Exactly. And that’s what we’re looking for when we fall in love. That’s what we’re looking for when we have children, you know, we’re not conscious of it, but that’s what we’re looking for when we look to our parents or that’s what we’re looking for from our colleagues.
Alan Steinfeld
I get it. So you discovered, did you wake up in the marriage and realize that this is what you were looking for in your marriage?
Nouk
We all, that’s true. That’s what we did. We both began doing the lessons in A Course in Miracles. And that sort of shook us to try to to really look at where the illusions were within our relationship. And boy, they came up daily. They really did come up daily. All sorts of things came up. To be honest with you, there were women coming into Tom’s life, there were all sorts of things that were coming to rock the actual relationship.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, it’s good when you get specific because quite people can relate to it, if you just say all sorts of things it gets vague. But if you concrete examples make it real.
Nouk
Concrete examples, we can give you a thousand of those. Women are always a good example. Okay. So he was tempted by other women. You know, we had all sorts of problems with family at the time. We had financial problems. We had we had a company and we were partners in a company at the time. And we were having conflict with our partners in that company. Right. But especially the big one was with Tom being tempted by other women and then me being.
Alan Steinfeld
Jealous?
Nouk
Me having to look at this and go, wait a minute, look, you know, is this really true? Is this really real? Is this illusion really occurring? How if I if I was healed, truly healed, how would I look at this? You know?
Alan Steinfeld
And you weren’t tempted by anybody else yourself.
Nouk
No, not during that those years.
Alan Steinfeld
So you were upset and jealous.
Nouk
Oh, my God, was I upset and jealous, of course I was, yes. Because the form wasn’t being validated of the marriage, is that what you say? Exactly. Well, you know, if he was looking at other women, this is how the ego operates. If he was looking for attention from other women, that told me, or my ego, that I wasn’t good enough.
Alan Steinfeld
And you can see that that’s not necessarily true.
Nouk
Of course not. So so then what happened? How did what shifted? So he was being tempted, you had all these problems and family and business and all that. And then what happened? Well, what occurred then is that, I just might just put this in here too, which is what we were learning, so it makes sense to the listeners. is that what we were learning is that the ego that we all think we are, the self that we think we are.
Alan Steinfeld
Me, included.
Nouk
Me included. During that time we were going through problems with our marriage. We learned that projection makes perception. So what what was actually happening with the. how can I say this very simply. is the ego actually projects everything. It projects my ego was projecting this entire seeming reality where Tom and I were having marital problems. Right. So I.
Alan Steinfeld
This gets into the Gary Renard understanding about the disappearance of the universe, right?
Nouk
That’s correct, yes.
Alan Steinfeld
Because he in that book says our ego is a projection of everything.
Nouk
That’s right.
Alan Steinfeld
So even this conversation is a projection of our two egos.
Nouk
Exactly, exactly. Now you can either use whatever you’re projecting for healing or you can use it, of course, for further projection and further fear and further further sleep in the dream as you call, as we call.
Alan Steinfeld
Further what the dream?
Nouk
Further unconsciousness in the dream. All right? So, you know, we began Tomas and myself began to look at what our individual projection was while we were going through our marriage problems. And I could see that my projection was that he was an unfaithful husband, so to speak. All right. Right, that was your projection. So I took 100% responsibility for that projection. And and Tom now I I got to see that he was giving me an opportunity to undo my ego. He was giving me the opportunity to undo what an almighty chunk of my ego. Because I was, and and because what I was doing then is I was looking and looking at it from The Course in Miracles point of view, which was the projection that was occurring, which was the marital problems and Tom was my problem, alright. So if I could offer forgiveness, now we’re not talking the old brand of forgiveness here, we’re talking quantum forgiveness. The Course in Miracles forgiveness, which was that if I was able, which I did, and it took a lot of practice, I was able to actually overlook Tom’s ego error in desiring other women, right. I was actually, I mean overlook it maybe is not the right word, is it? Well it’s to forgive it, Alan.
Alan Steinfeld
Forgive it. But it’s only the ego that’s forgiving, there’s nothing to forgive in a sense.
Nouk
No there isn’t. But when you’re in it, boy, when you’re in it and somebody’s pressing your buttons and you feel like you’re gonna die and all of that, you know, you yes, you have to pull on this, you know, this is what what we pulled on. And we pulled on. well I pulled on this particular at this particular time we were going through our marriage problems. was to look at this, he was my projection. This was the classroom in which that I could learn to forgive. Because see, Tom was me. All right. And so if I could forgive Tom, if I could overlook the error that Tom was doing, I was actually undoing my own ego. Now, you know what the ego is, Alan, according to a course in miracles is a massive unconscious guilt. That’s what the ego is. We’ve got no idea this massive guilt.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s how you define the whole ego as a mass?
Nouk
That’s it. And a man.
Alan Steinfeld
Just a mass of unconscious guilt?
Nouk
That’s what it all comes down to.
Alan Steinfeld
I’ve had many people come to me and say, “But I don’t feel guilty.” Right, exactly. “So tell me, so tell me where the hell is this massive unconscious guilt? How can I find it? Where is it?” Okay? And I’ll might just go through a list of. to detect this unconscious guilt in your life. just ask yourself because these to the degree that you experience the following point, and I’ll give them to you now. To the degree that you experience the following point in your life, is to the degree that this unconscious guilt is still manifest in your ego. So that’s to the degree that you have that level.
Alan Steinfeld
All right, so give me the points because I want to check it with my ego.
Nouk
Okay, so let’s just go through this. Now this is not all of them. But these are the ones that I’ve been told are the greatest, okay.
Alan Steinfeld
Now, these are things you developed or you got this from.
Nouk
This is what, well, first of all, this is what we’ve got from our personal experience. Okay. And through the students that we’ve worked with over the last few years as well. Okay. So, unconscious guilt hides in you to the degree that you experience the following. You either judge others or you perceive them judging you.
Alan Steinfeld
Now, how does that have to do with guilt?
Nouk
Okay. To the degree that these things actually so actually to the degree you feel these things, Alan, in your life, okay? That’s to the degree that you you have hidden guilt. So judging myself or others. Okay, yes. Judging yourself or others.
Alan Steinfeld
To the degree that you react negatively to a perceived offense, in other words, if you if you take offense and you act with anger, either with an action or even with a feeling, all right, frustration or judgment, etc. to the degree that you feel that on a daily basis is to the degree that there’s hidden unconscious guilt.
Nouk
But when you say guilt, don’t you have to be guilty about something in order to be guilty? No, no, this is going again another whole quantum leap deeper. I understand. than the ego’s connotation or ego’s understanding of guilt. So the ego is defined by guilt, meaning still trying to get the idea what you actually mean by guilt. Okay. Let’s just go back to the original separation, that might help a little. Okay. The original separation is where from the oneness, from all that is, or the God that is all love, there sprang something that was not God. All right?
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I don’t quite agree with that because it still is God if it’s sprang from God.
Nouk
Well, okay. There was something. There was something that believed it was not God. All right? Well, that was part of the falling into illusion. That’s exactly right. And nothing’s wrong, there is nothing wrong, as you know well. Well, we chose. It was a choice by spirit to fall into the illusion of separation. Exactly. We chose.
Alan Steinfeld
But I think that is actually an old paradigm because me and you and a lot of people on the path know we’re not actually separate.
Nouk
No, we do. Now, we know it on an intellectual level, alright. But while we perceive these things that I have a list of here, then we’re not knowing it. We’re not experiencing that connection in this level of illusion in the dream.
Alan Steinfeld
I know, but that’s also still intellectual because I think we do experience it in many more ways than we are aware of. You know, today was 9-11, the memorial for this whole major thing. It wasn’t a celebration, it was a feeling of sadness. And looking at the people’s faces and what they were experiencing, I felt what they were feeling, you know. It’s like I am with them through the emotional connection of sadness or laughter or anger. I can feel what you’re feeling. Do you know? I’m not feeling separate from from you in our emotional experience.
Nouk
I I agree with you, Alan. All right.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s all. I mean, I think in the feeling part where there is no separation.
Nouk
Oh, you know, like we all, yes, we have an ego. And, but most of us are able to contact that deep compassion and oneness. That’s what you were just talking about. Right. Empathy transcends ego. All right. Yes. Now, in those moments we’re in truth. Right.
Alan Steinfeld
And I think more, I think people live there more than they think they do. It’s just when they start thinking that they are something separate that they get confused, but you know, we always cry at a good movie, don’t we?
Nouk
Oh, yes, we do. Oh, that’s true. That’s true. I guess what what what I’m saying here is that to the degree, you know what, we are still suffering. We you know, weakly most of us experience some type of suffering. All right. Right.
Alan Steinfeld
I mean, of course, there’s awful things happening on the planet and wars and you know, starvation and and, you know, terror and all that stuff is still going on. So the planet’s not healed. Our illusion isn’t healed. There is a lot of ego still happening. So anyway, I just needed to say those things because.
Nouk
Yes. But go ahead with the points because I think a lot of those points are absolutely true of the ego. So yes, well this is it. You know, I mean.
Alan Steinfeld
So go ahead with the points.
Nouk
Yes, this is just a deep unconscious guilt. Alright. And it manifests in our lives in these areas. So, you know, to the degree that you experience judging others, because the fuel of the ego is judgment. Because, you know, we’re judging others. Now when whenever we judge somebody else, we’re forgetting that they’re they’re us. Because when you walk into a room and you might see a hundred people in a room, there’s really only one in the room. Right. The highest level. Alright. So if somebody presses your buttons, you’re gonna suffer. You’ll suffer from anger or anxiety or regret or remorse or whatever, whatever, whatever. Right. And what we’re trying to do with this is get people to the point where they truly decide to give up suffering. And you can’t do that till you’ve had enough of it, unfortunately.
Alan Steinfeld
Well. So how do, but many people don’t even know that they can give it up, like my mother.
Nouk
No, they don’t.
Alan Steinfeld
She’s a professional sufferer, and she has nothing really to complain about, but she’ll find something.
Nouk
Yes, yes, and I think that’s okay, too. People get there when they’re ready. But are some people know, don’t even know that you can stop suffering. How do you know you can stop something? What is the, what I found from experience is that it’s not until you’ve really had enough suffering. It sounds terrible, but it’s true. It’s not until you’ve really had enough suffering, you know, you’ve experienced some kind of death, you’ve experienced an identity crisis, you’ve lost the love of your life, you know, you’ve been bankrupt.
Alan Steinfeld
So you say suffering is an aspect of the ego then.
Nouk
It is. But we won’t turn to the light usually, we won’t turn to undoing the ego until we’ve experienced a true disillusionment with the ego. Because you know, if somebody comes to me and says to me, look Nouk, the dream is working really well for me, you know. I found my soulmate, I have millions of dollars in the bank. I have, you know, I’ve explored my creativity. Life is good, life is great. They’re not going to want to read Take Me to Truth. And I wouldn’t recommend it to them.
Alan Steinfeld
Well maybe though they would because maybe the way they are living, you can still have all those things and and be discu and have not so much an ego. You can live in that joy that has a perfect partner and and the money and the creativity.
Nouk
Well actually, can I, can I say this Alan, I don’t agree with that. Okay. All right, I don’t. And I’ll tell you why. Tell me, please. All right. Is that the ego cannot know true happiness and love. It just can’t. So the person that hasn’t actually undone the self they think is real and the world they think is real, can’t ever have consistent love, real love, and happiness.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I don’t, I guess I don’t know what real love and happiness is. But there is a there is a satisfaction, maybe that’s not love, having having fulfillment in your work, fulfillment in your partner.
Nouk
You can do all that. Look, I had fulfillment in my work for almost 18 years, you know, before I chose to chip away at my ego. I thought I’d reached it. Until the bottom fell out of my world.
Alan Steinfeld
Well could you have fulfillment without the ego? I mean or is it only.
Nouk
That’s a fulfilling feeling without the ego? I’ve had some pretty incredible glimpses of that state. And I can say from experience that there is no connection between the flimsy fulfillment, happiness, and love you get from an ego experience to the one that you arrive at once you start to chip away at your ego. There’s just no connection. This see because see the ego’s the ego has a mantra, Alan. And the ego’s mantra is seek and do not find. And it means seek, sure. Seek love. Seek your soulmate. Seek whatever it is you ever want. Use the secret. Use the law of attraction from the ego. And you will find, yes. But you’re gonna lose it, because the ego doesn’t want you to ever find the truth. The truth is that the ego is an illusion. That this reality is an illusion. That there’s a far greater reality that we belong to. And that as we undo the ego illusion and the dream, we will return to. And you know, you can still as The Course in Miracles says, that as the ego is undone, eventually we will reach a state which is called the happy dream.
Alan Steinfeld
The happy dream.
Nouk
So I think this might be the reality that you really have an affinity for too Alan, which is the reality where there is that consistent bliss, that consistent sense of connection, fulfillment, endless abundance. That is where we belong. And that has nothing to do with the world itself.
Alan Steinfeld
No, it has nothing to do with this reality. This is a plane of illusion here. Okay. But it is and it isn’t because the illusion is an it’s a symbolic form of the of the other level of reality. You know what I’m saying?
Nouk
It is. But yes, okay. I can see that. You know, how I see it is that while while this is an illusion, this entire, reality that we see is an illusion, there, there is still God peeping through.
Alan Steinfeld
Exactly, and there’s still feeling and empathy and compassion.
Nouk
Oh yes.
Alan Steinfeld
And the feeling, and we are incarnated into this world not even to undo the ego but to to use the ego to experience God in form if you want to say that. Do you know what I mean?
Nouk
Yes, and I’ll add something to that.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes.
Nouk
I’ll add, I think you’re right there. And then the next part is of course to experience form, which equals suffering, which equals disillusionment, which equals the last step on this plane, which is you’ll want to undo the ego.
Alan Steinfeld
Do you see the cycle? Well, I think, but I’m not sure if you you have the ego and know that you’re not the ego, some people describe the ego as just the steering wheel of the whole vehicle, but it’s not the vehicle, it’s just the part that gets.
Nouk
Okay, well what we might go to now is the. Right. Is that I believe that we can have a thread of ego.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes, that’s what I’m sensing.
Nouk
And I believe that too, but, but, you know, it’s like 99%, so 1% ego. This is what I’m heading towards, is to have what’s left of me, because I mean, if you don’t have an ego, you cannot exist in this plane of reality, right?
Alan Steinfeld
Well, probably not, although there’s really, I mean, there’s some transcendent beings. I mean, Jesus may have had an ego, but he also was.
Nouk
He had the, this is what I’d like to just clarify here, and this is what I’d like to head for, is to have the thread of ego, but to have it absolutely abdicate, this is what I want to do is, to abdicate whatever’s left of the ego to stay in this plane of reality, abdicate that thread to the universal inspiration. Alright? So what we have.
Alan Steinfeld
I want to do that too, yes.
Nouk
So what we’ll have is me Nouk, as I know myself now, will be really the universal inspiration working through this fractal, or this person called Nouk.
Alan Steinfeld
But you know what? You you are doing that.
Nouk
Well, I have it.
Alan Steinfeld
You don’t have to want it, it is exactly.
Nouk
It is happening, but to be honest again, is that up until 49 or 40 or so years of existence in this plane of reality, I didn’t know that. In other words, I was not aware of that.
Alan Steinfeld
But anyway, we only have a minute left, so go ahead.
Nouk
The degree, that what I might just say this, because this is really important too Alan, is that you know it’s a lot of there’s a lot of suffering involved in thinking you are the person you think you are, alright? There’s a lot of suffering. And and what’s motivated me here is to get to the stage where there’s way more joy and peace than there is suffering. And the only way to actually to get there is to just abolish all other priorities. Except you know, prioritizing peace.
Alan Steinfeld
Can I just tell you a joke that I saw in the New Yorker about that? This drunk guy was out of a bar and he’s yelling at the bartender and he says, “You have no idea who I think I am.”
Nouk
“You have no idea who I think I am.” This is some drunken rage.
Alan Steinfeld
I love that one. Yes, it’s a cartoon in the New Yorker magazine.
Nouk
I love that one.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes.
Nouk
Actually, yes. So I think actually they use it in a book called The End of Suffering by Russell Targ and JJ Hurtak. I’ll I’ll show that to you when I see you.
Alan Steinfeld
I can’t wait. I’m looking forward to it.
Nouk
Anyway, go ahead, no, because I’m with you on this train of thought. So I’m with you, so continue.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay, so it’s just what I realized and I realized this, you know, not early on in the piece, but later in the piece, is that I needed to abolish all other priorities in my life other than the priority to put peace first. And this is going back to the marriage.
Nouk
Yes, this is going back to the marriage, going back to life as well, too. Like what I, before we can actually go onto the whole marriage thing and, and, you know, the blessing that came from the disaster, I might just go back to what this unconscious guilt is. Okay, yes, let’s finish the unconscious guilt, and then we’ll- As we were talking before, as we were saying before, it is unconscious, I mean most of it’s hidden. I did, I had no idea. I was so shocked to find out that I that guilt, this hidden guilt that comes from the original separation, which comes from the decision that we all made to enter into a reality that was not God, so to speak, okay, to enter a dream where God could peep through, sure, but that we chose something, we chose an ego, which is really apart from God, alright, and there was this massive guilt.
Alan Steinfeld
I don’t get the guilt. I mean don’t you think some people chose that with joy saying, yes, we’re volunteering for.
Nouk
But I did, but when maybe, I don’t know, what the hell do I know? All I know.
Alan Steinfeld
I mean I’m just saying I just I just don’t get the guilt. But I mean, I’m following the other stuff. Sure, no, but that’s great. That’s great, Alan, because if you don’t get the guilt, that means that on some other level, there is a block to that. There is a block, or maybe it’s just not true for me.
Nouk
Or maybe it’s not true for you. Okay. But let’s say, you go through the stages because I’ll look for it, I’ll look for that guilt because you know, I. Yes, but it’s a different guilt than the ego’s guilt, all right? It’s not that type of guilt.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh it’s a different guilt, can you?
Nouk
No, it’s a different guilt. When I use the word guilt, I might call it separation complex. Separation anxiety, some people call it. If I use that term? I feel better if I use separation it’s. That’s exactly, that makes you feel better. Well let’s use that. It really is a separation.
Alan Steinfeld
Because that gets taken out of the Christian context. And puts it into the. because really guilt implies a God that says you were bad, and I don’t.
Nouk
Well, but God doesn’t say that, our ego does. Our ego, this is the suffering factor that we have as an ego. That’s what we.
Alan Steinfeld
You did help me, you really have Alan. You’re great.
Nouk
I’ve helped you how?
Alan Steinfeld
You’ve helped me to come up with a term called the suffering factor.
Nouk
Oh, I did I just come up with that for you? I’ll help you with that.
Alan Steinfeld
Well you came up with, but I helped you. The unconscious guilt, some people have an aversion to that term. So I might just call it for now the suffering factor. In other words, I can deal with that term. Okay, I can deal with that. And I think actually, as teachers and artists and creators, we have to keep redefining our terms to make it accessible to people, because we’re trying here in radio and communication and media to articulate experiences to make it real for people.
Nouk
Yes, and I agree with you. That’s why we went, and that’s why we wrote the book. Exactly. We put it in different terms, you know.
Alan Steinfeld
Exactly. And that’s why we need to keep redefining our terms, so.
Nouk
And we really, and that’s really what the evolution of a spiritual culture and all cultures are about, are redefining, having a greater articulation of experience or greater-
Alan Steinfeld
I think you’re right there too. And I’ve always had a challenge with words, because I noticed that if you use one word, which is purely just a label, it doesn’t tell you anything about the experience or the thing or the circumstance that that word is describing. Well, let’s say. If I say the word Jesus to you, and I and there say there is a thousand people listening to the word Jesus, there’s probably going to be a thousand different interpretations, a thousand different feelings that are going to come up with that one word.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I agree, it goes back to the Eskimo example of like 30 names for snow.
Nouk
Yes.
Alan Steinfeld
So they in their language have been able to articulate different experiences of that condition, you know, so when we just say guilt, we have a different so if we keep redefining our words in a sophisticated psycho-emotional, spiritual culture that we’re evolving into, we start to understand each other better.
Nouk
We sure do. So that’s all. But I’m following you so far. Oh, great. We just help me here. So, you know, we’ll write our next book together, okay? Yes, let’s do it. Okay, done. But so, so we were using, we just come up with this, this term called the suffering factor, human suffering factor, which is.
Alan Steinfeld
And you’re saying judgments a part of that.
Nouk
Judgments a huge part of that. Yes, but it is the original, it’s the legacy left from the original separation. Okay? It’s the original separation. But, so, it’s called the suffering factor. And to the degree that you experience, like judging others or perceiving them judging you, right? To the degree that you perceive sickness and physical pain, you will be experiencing this. You’ll be experiencing suffering, yes.
Alan Steinfeld
To the degree that you react negatively to a perceived offense, with anger, defense, frustration or judgment. To the degree that you judge yourself, I think a lot of us tend to do that, we judge ourselves harshly, more and more.
Nouk
I agree with that, yes.
Alan Steinfeld
To the degree that you experience seeming injustice in the form of perceived attack. You know.
Nouk
Perceived attack.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes, perceived attack.
Nouk
And that could be a political thing as well as a personal thing.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes, with your partner, family, co-workers, etc.
Nouk
But it could be like global or could be, you know what I’m saying.
Alan Steinfeld
It could be global, it could be political. That goes on to the next point here, to the degree you perceive threat or anxiety in the case of personal or worldly adversity.
Nouk
I see.
Alan Steinfeld
So, you know, any I mean, like 9/11. I mean, we we in Australia were devastated.
Nouk
Absolutely devastated, you know.
Alan Steinfeld
By what’s. by 9/11. Which is today actually.
Nouk
Which is today, exactly. We were absolutely devastated, you know. I I just fell on my knees and cried.
Alan Steinfeld
Because what was the devastation part? Because.
Nouk
Oh well we were devastated to hear what happened you know in 9/11 in New York City.
Alan Steinfeld
But why were you devastated? I mean because it- Or or Australia in particular.
Nouk
Well, we were devastated because we love the Americans, you know. We Australians admire Americans.
Alan Steinfeld
Cause they’re just like you.
Nouk
Yes, exactly.
Alan Steinfeld
So an attack on our culture or civilization is an attack on you.
Nouk
Yes. And it’s an attack, exactly. We’re connected, and it’s an attack on us. And I guess what it did for my ego, speaking personally at the time, is I forgot that this was a dream. I forgot that this was an illusion. I completely realized the fear hit me so fast that there is truly no security in anything physical, and that was the scary part, okay? So that created a lot of suffering for me.
Alan Steinfeld
Well that was probably the point of of it to shake up the ego and make them realize wait there’s no there’s no safety out out here.
Nouk
Exactly! You’re absolutely right on par! Because exactly those types of experiences actually push people back towards the light, back towards wanting to wake up. And what we, you know, what I found is that there was, you know, we had a lot of issues, Tomas and I, going back to the marriage again. Yes, what happened in the marriage. Let’s start the healing because I really like what you were saying before about forgiving and-
Alan Steinfeld
Right. Let’s talk about the stages. The stages.
Nouk
Can we talk about the stages quickly? We have about eight minutes left of the show. So just- Oh my god! Well I’ve been talking too much. Not at all.
Alan Steinfeld
Just outline those stages, so that people get a-
Nouk
So, the stages, in a nutshell. This is what we wrote to guide people through. Is there are six stages, alright?
Alan Steinfeld
Yes, outline them because we’re sort of coming to the end a little bit, but yes.
Nouk
Okay, I’ll just say that what happened is that I skipped and I went straight to stage four. But can you outline the first, the first part, sure.
Alan Steinfeld
The first stage is undoing. This is about undoing the ego. The first stage is undoing. It’s usually uncomfortable and the onset is usually brought on by a disillusionment of some sort.
Nouk
Like a loss.
Alan Steinfeld
Like a loss, an identity crisis of some type.
Nouk
Okay. This is all outlined in “Take Me To Truth”.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. Yes. And then the second one is sorting out. So you start to sort out what’s real and what’s false. Okay. The third stage is relinquishment. You begin to get the guts to relinquish the false.
Nouk
Relinquish the false identification.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes, your values, your beliefs. You relinquish the illusion in that. The fourth, which-
Nouk
Where you went to directly, yes.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes, the fourth one is settling down. Then you have a little bit of a breather and think, oh boy.
Nouk
Okay.
Alan Steinfeld
And then the wait, we skipped, oh, that’s four. No, settling down. And then we have the fifth stage is an amazing time. It’s like hitting enlightenment face-to-face.
Nouk
It’s like a transcendent, so once you relinquish it, you’re kind of freed up.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, you’re freed up. It’s like- And there’s a lot of light that pours through you. And you know, a lot of people feel that they’re enlightened. I did.
Nouk
Okay. But that’s just the fourth stage.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s just the fourth stage. Alright? And then comes the fifth stage, which is called the period of unsettling, unsettling.
Nouk
This is the dark night of the soul.
Alan Steinfeld
Ah, thank you Alan.
Nouk
Okay. Because you have to know you have a soul in order to have a dark night of the soul.
Alan Steinfeld
Exactly.
Nouk
So from the fourth stage you realize you’re the soul and then the fifth stage is- Yes. So okay, so in the dark night of the soul, what happens? And then the fifth stage is a long, long stage. It’s the longest, it can, it can be the longest of the stages. And you know, you you’re really you’re really learning to prioritize peace. You’re learning that there is no order of difficulty in miracles. You’re learning that literally. You’re also learning that there are no levels of illusions. Now, listen to this, Alan. You know, and I’m, a lot of people take get take offense at this when I say this, but you learn, to give you an example of the degree, you realize that it’s the same illusion that to to take offense is exactly the same illusion or mistake as is to steal or hit. You know? Because they’re all-
Nouk
Wait, no, give offense.
Alan Steinfeld
To give offense. To take offense.
Nouk
To give offense. Or praise, even to take praise. Or exactly. Yes, to give praise or take praise is the same as to take offense or to give offense. To see defense, you know, to perceive that somebody’s offended you is no different-
Nouk
Than to offend somebody.
Alan Steinfeld
You know, yes. Okay.
Nouk
So that’s in the fifth stage.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s in the fifth stage. You learn that there’s no levels of illusions.
Nouk
There are no levels of illusions.
Alan Steinfeld
The person you realize that the person who has just swore at you, yes, hasn’t made a a lesser mistake than the person who’s murdered somebody. Do you understand me?
Nouk
Right, I do understand, yes.
Alan Steinfeld
So you know, you know, we talk about this intellectually, but the fifth stage, you get to know it. You really know that. And boy, that really frees you from suffering like you wouldn’t believe. And this is where I believe, I’d like to believe that I’ve come into that phase now where I’m actually living and learning that.
Nouk
But why did you have so many problems in the fourth stage, physical problems?
Alan Steinfeld
Because I needed to, well, it’s like a reassessment. No, the fourth stage I didn’t have any problems. It wasn’t until I hit the fifth stage.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, the fifth stage. Now why did you have, were there things that you were holding on to in the fifth stage?
Nouk
Oh, there were lots of things that I was holding on to that I was convinced I had given up. Like what? Like, oh, I was shocked. I I had a huge ego still in certain areas.
Alan Steinfeld
You know there’s a book called spiritual material- cutting through spiritual materialism, a whole book. The spiritual ego is the chump as Richard Shea says.
Nouk
You’re wonderful. I love you Alan. No, thank you. No, there’s a whole book about called cutting through spiritual materialism because many gurus are in that stage. They have this huge spiritual ego even though they’ve had an enlightened experience they still are really stuck and you can smell it you can see it.
Alan Steinfeld
Well I trust you on that one because I guess you probably would have met a few.
Nouk
I have met a few and a lot of them are amazing people with huge egos that they don’t think they have. Yes, that’s sad isn’t it. So that’s I mean I that’s my opinion anyway. And they have and there are some great people but you know there’s nothing wrong with the ego it’s just like you’re saying another level of illusion. So the fifth stage then is the undoing of all that. And then.
Nouk
It’s the undoing of all that. Now you can shorten that. Again, we wrote this book to shorten the whole process to people because I certainly don’t want, and Tomas certainly doesn’t want anybody to ever, you know, experience the suffering that we did.
Alan Steinfeld
Well but you know people do and you know Jesus died on the cross and all that, but you know people will experience suffering if if that’s what they I guess, I mean they don’t have to. Well yes, but you know. But it’s great that you are able to help.
Nouk
Well this is what we want to do, we don’t want them to take the twists and turns that we did that caused so much. so much disillusionment and so much frustration.
Alan Steinfeld
But what’s the sixth stage you said there was six.
Nouk
The sixth stage is heaven on earth.
Alan Steinfeld
Now have you gotten there yet?
Nouk
You know Alan, I think that I’m getting some fairly good chunks of it in my daily life. I really am getting it and I I shared with you a vision that previously that I had where I feel that I’m getting there. And and as soon as I know I’m there fully I’m going to call you.
Alan Steinfeld
And we’ll do a show once from the sixth stage.
Nouk
Oh look, I think it would be wonderful.
Alan Steinfeld
No I’m excited about that. Yes. I mean I really appreciate you sharing this whole entire process with me and the audience listening and that you were able and that you were able to put it in this book called Take Me To Truth, The Undoing of Ego because I mean I was just giving you a hard time because I think what you have done will save a lot of people you know, the suffering that they don’t have to go through because you’ve you’ve done it for them in a way.
Nouk
Oh you know can I just tell you something serious too Alan I forgot. This this is incredible. Do you know you’ve heard you know when when an idea’s time has come, it’s come. You’ve heard that before. All right now this this is an absolute miracle in the realm of the dream this illusion. We’ve done we haven’t done that much at all. We’re with a book. You know we’ve been published by a UK publisher called O Books. And today we got a call saying quick, look at your book on amazon.com. You guys, out of you were 1.6 million on the Amazon rating chart. Four weeks ago or three weeks ago. Today you’ve reached 118. 118th out of all their books.
Nouk
Are you the 118th book on Amazon UK?
Nouk
Today.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes, probably even less as we speak. How did you climb to the rank so quickly?
Nouk
The universal inspiration obviously wanted this idea whose time has come to get out to the world.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes, but how did you get the idea out to the world?
Alan Steinfeld
Well, we wrote the book. And then.
Nouk
No, but how did people find it?
Alan Steinfeld
Isn’t that incredible? This is we’re scratching our heads ourselves. I just thought we were next to the-
Nouk
Next to the Secret?
Alan Steinfeld
Oh the Secret. I mean we we’re number one book in in mysticism at the moment.
Alan Steinfeld
You’re the number one book in mysticism?
Nouk
That’s right.
Alan Steinfeld
Congratulations! Isn’t that, but obvious, matter of miracle?
Nouk
That is a miracle, that’s great! And it hasn’t even been officially released till September 28th.
Alan Steinfeld
Wow, beautiful. So you’re gonna be quite, quite popular. I’m happy we did this interview and you revealed so much of your inner truth.
Nouk
Oh, look, thank you. Thank you. And Alan, we do have a workshop coming up in New York.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh yes, please talk about that and give your website and tell people how to find you.
Nouk
Okay, well our website is takemetotruth.com. And we’re having a one day Undoing the Ego workshop in New York City at the New York Theosophical Society. And.
Alan Steinfeld
What’s the date?
Nouk
The date is Saturday October 6th. The contact is Roger Van Van Vlissingen. And his phone number is 917-549-0959.
Alan Steinfeld
Great.
Nouk
Okay, there is a there’s an actual, what do you call it? A link.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh yes.
Nouk
You know, that they could go to? There’s another link that they’d go to. And it’s acim.meetup.com.
Alan Steinfeld
ACIM short for A Course in Miracles?
Nouk
Oh, okay. acim.meetup.com.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay.
Nouk
All right. And that’s the New York-
Alan Steinfeld
And are you going to be doing workshops around the country too?
Nouk
Yes, we are. We’re doing workshops in a lot of the cities.
Alan Steinfeld
Where are you doing it?
Nouk
Oh, gee.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, how people look at your website.
Nouk
Tell them to go to the workshop page of the website. There are also a number of international magazine articles that we that we’re putting on the website to, if listeners want to read some of the helpful articles on the website. That’s takemetotruth.com.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. And we’ll definitely do another interview. We’ll do a television interview when you’re in New York, okay?
Nouk
Oh, I can’t wait. I can’t wait.
Alan Steinfeld
Are you coming with Thomas?
Nouk
We we’re coming together. We’re going to present the workshop together as well. I think we’ll be able to share some more of the personal stuff that Tom’s got the memory. My memory’s gone on all this.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, it doesn’t matter about that. You have the feeling of it and the transcendence.
Nouk
Thank you. And oh, one more thing I forgot to say is that we’re also having an evening, if anybody’s interested to come to our evening on Friday night, October 5th, at the New York Theosophical Society.
Alan Steinfeld
Is that the one on 72nd Street?
Nouk
I’m not sure. Well, it’s on your website. Yes, it’s, it’s, yep. And it’s-
Alan Steinfeld
And you’re going to send me a link to that right so I can put it out on the newsletter?
Nouk
Yes, I’m going to do that. I’ll do that tonight.
Alan Steinfeld
Definitely send that to me.
Nouk
Well, I’m so looking forward to coming to New York City. I’ve been wanting to come there all my life.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, you haven’t been here.
Nouk
I’ve never been there.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, well, I’ll show you around personally.
Nouk
Oh, that’s great. I’m looking forward to it.
Alan Steinfeld
I will. Well, thank you so much for sharing yourself with us here on New Realities, you know, because-
Nouk
Thank you, Alan.
Alan Steinfeld
I think what you were able to share will inspire people to, to at least start to wake up to something bigger than themselves, you know, which they really are.
Nouk
Well, exactly, you know, and once they do this, get the ugly stuff over and done with, they’re going to find that who they are is going to absolutely exceed any all expectations.
Alan Steinfeld
And not to take any of it too seriously like their marriage.
Nouk
You got to have a good laugh.
Alan Steinfeld
Yes.
Nouk
That’s like when you and I get together in New York City, we’re gonna have a real good laugh.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, good. We don’t even have to wait till then, but yes, we will. Thank you Nouk Sanchez. I’ve been talking to Nouk Sanchez, her book, “Take Me to Truth: Undoing the Ego.” And I guess a subtitle, is this the quote, bridging the yawning gap that exists between seeking enlightenment and finding it?
Nouk
Yes. That’s right.
Alan Steinfeld
Is that the subtitle? Is that just a quote?
Nouk
Well, that’s just, I guess that’s just a quote that we have, yes. The subtitle is “Undoing the Ego.”
Alan Steinfeld
But doing the ego.
Nouk
Yes, it’s to take us out of seeking and into actual finding and claiming it, you know?
Alan Steinfeld
Well, I really see you as a testament to someone who’s really doing that, who really is going for it in a big, big way and and not and and and doing anything it takes to to find that truth, to find the truth, to disappear the universe, to relinquish the ego.
Nouk
Thank you, thank you, Alan. You’re wonderful. And I take that as an honor coming from you.
Alan Steinfeld
Because I’m sure you’ve been studying this for many, many years. You’ve been walking the path for many years.
Alan Steinfeld
I have.
Nouk
And you’ve interviewed a lot of people on this subject. So coming from you, it’s a real honor.
Alan Steinfeld
I have, and I’ve also done my own looking at my ego, you know, I happen to like my ego but, or is my ego liking me? I don’t know but, no but I understand the part that I’m not that ego self also. So thank you, Nouk, for being a guest tonight.
Nouk
Thank you Alan. Looking forward to seeing you in New York.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay, yes. I’ve been talking to Nouk Sanchez, this is Alan Steinfeld for New Realities. If you have any questions about what you’ve heard or ideas or possibilities of upcoming guests or possible guests, please contact me at newrealities@earthlink.net. You can also look at my website, newrealities.tv. I also do some live streams at rabbitwholecentral.tv, you can always look at that. Every day, that usually comes through at a live stream on the internet every day around 12 o’clock New York time. And listen next week to bbsradio.com, same time, same place. Thank you, I’m going to leave with a song by Deva Premal, it’s actually the Gayatri Mantra which is a whole way to transcend the ego by just dropping into the possibility of of going with the mantra, dropping into the sound of the word. So thank you for listening.