New Realities recorded on April 15, 2007
Summary
In this episode of New Realities, host Alan Steinfeld and co-host Maria Marilli discuss the evolution of human consciousness. First guest, esoteric astrologer Rebecca Gordon, discusses the newly discovered dwarf planet Eris and its astrological impact on collective human rights and equality. The second guest, philosophy professor James Fetzer, explores the evolution of intelligence, concept formation, animal cognition, and how language shapes our reality, while also raising concerns about the potential for government control over the internet.
Transcript
Announcer
New Realities is dedicated to exploring evolving human potentials in an evolving world. This series explores the idea of how to become more conscious beings. We present programs that invite the viewer to look at automatic behaviors and take free rein of their body, mind, and spirit so that we can hope to inhabit and create a better world. And now your host of New Realities, Alan Steinfeld.
Alan Steinfeld
Thank you, Maria. Brand new announcer Maria.
Alan Steinfeld
Maria Marilli?
Maria Marilli
Maria Marilli.
Alan Steinfeld
Maria Marilli. And this is New Realities and I’m Alan Steinfeld. And each week I like to bring the latest in our spiritual potentials, what is happening, how we’re evolving our consciousness. And the beginning of the show, I usually make some initial announcements. Is that good, Maria?
Maria Marilli
Great.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay, good. We’re having good sound here today. The first thing that’s coming up is I’m going to be hosting a panel called The Art and Science of the Light Body with Alex Grey and J.J. Hurtak. That is Thursday, April 19th, at a place called the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors. That’s 540 West 27th Street. And you can check that out at cosm, chapelofsacredmirrors.org, cosm.org. And then on Saturday the 21st, I’ll be conducting an intention experiment with Lynne McTaggart, who wrote a book called The Intention Experiment. We’ll be doing a group intention to change the environment. And we’ll be hooked up via the internet to Arizona and to England, and we’ll be sending collective thoughts in order to change the environment, particularly in Arizona. So that’s what’s coming up right now. And what else is happening, Maria? Talk to me.
Maria Marilli
So much. What isn’t happening, Alan?
Alan Steinfeld
Well, you can tell people that I do a television show.
Maria Marilli
Of course you do. 12 years now on channel 57.
Alan Steinfeld
Channel 57 in New York. That is also called New Realities, and you can check that out at newrealities.tv. And also you can check that out on YouTube. There’s a lot of my old interviews on YouTube, people with Deepak Chopra, for instance, and J.J. Hurtak, who you’ll get to meet if you’re in New York on Thursday. And I just also want to tell people that there’s something else, I’m still taking a trip to Italy, to Damanhur, which is a collective community of spiritual seekers living in the north of Italy, that’s Damanhur.
Maria Marilli
How much is it?
Alan Steinfeld
That is, well, people can call me if they’re interested in coming.
Maria Marilli
That’s always the question, right?
Alan Steinfeld
Well, it’s under $2,000 for a week of spiritual commune with the mountains with this amazing temple that was built into the mountain. We’re leaving April 27th. We’ll be back April 5th or 6th, depending if you’re going to stay longer. So that’s happening, and people can actually call me if they’re really interested. The information on that is damanhur. D A M A N H U R. And you can leave a message if that sounds interesting at 212-473-6388 or email me at newrealities@earthlink.net. I also want to tell people there’s a Divine Feminine conference. And if you were listening to my show last week, I was interviewing the founder of that conference named Finbarr Ross. And he has something called Celtic Mystery Journeys. And he’ll be doing a conference in New York City on Awakening the Divine Feminine. And that’s at the Meta Center. That’s 214 West 29th Street. I know this is local, but Finbarr will also be taking his bunch of goddesses, his bevy of goddesses, around the country. And the number to call him at Finbarr, if you’re interested in the Awakening the Goddess conferences that will be happening everywhere in all the major cities, his number for reservations and information is 877-756-8763. Now one more very special announcement before we get to our first guest. And that is that I am hosting a Tantra weekend. And Tantra is the art of conscious loving. It’s an ancient Hindu practice. And that will be with Charles Muir, who’s also been the guest on this show. You can check the archives. I think it was two weeks ago in March that Charles was our guest on the show. And Tantra really is about the practice of understanding the power of connection, increasing intimacy, expressing spiritual and sensual union. He also does healing and awakening of sexual energies.
Maria Marilli
And do couples attend this?
Alan Steinfeld
Good question, Maria. No, you can attend on your own, or if you are with somebody and you want to get closer to them, and you’re not going to get any closer than a Tantric weekend, you can come with a couple. But if you’re single and would like to attend and know more about sensuality and sexuality, this is really a great workshop. So let me just give people a number to contact for Charles Muir, and he’s also all over the country traveling around. But in New York, he’ll be here the 4th to the 6th of May, 2007. And a number about that is 212-777-0794. And he’s also at sourcetantra.com. Do you understand what Tantra is, Maria?
Maria Marilli
I’ve heard a lot about it, but I don’t. Really, I have never had the pleasure of experiencing Tantra.
Alan Steinfeld
I’ll have to show you after the show. We’ll be off the air by then. Anyway, Tantra really is a way of consciously connecting. Most people are unconscious in their sexuality. It’s just the animal part of them. Tantra is really about making sexuality more human, more divine, actually.
Maria Marilli
Oh, from all chakras, opening up.
Alan Steinfeld
All chakras. Not just one chakra. It’s a total chakra experience. Anyway, that will be coming up at the beginning of May. And really, if you have a question, I totally recommend it. And if you are listening to this show, you can say you’re a listener to New Realities, and you’ll get $50 off the workshop. Normally it’s $450, you can get it for $400. So the number to call for that is 212-777-0794. Okay, so I have two guests tonight on the show. One is an astrologer, who will be introduced. And the other is a person I just talked to on the phone named Jim Fetzer. And Jim will be the second guest. But just a little background about him is that he is talking about the evolution of intelligence. And what is the aspect of the human mind? And that’s really what New Realities is all about. How to explore the mind and the understanding of our reality. Our first guest, do you want to just introduce the first guest? I don’t know if she’s on the phone yet, but give us a little rundown about who she is.
Maria Marilli
Sure. Rebecca Gordon is a professional astrologer in New York City. She sees clients weekly. She has a city office. And she also does speaking engagements. She’s coming out with a newsletter beginning in May called Astro Time. And you can find Rebecca on her website at lifepathastro.com. She’s a columnist, speaker, and does private consultations. So Rebecca Gordon, we’ll be hearing from her.
Alan Steinfeld
Thank you. Let me see, she’s probably, we just have another minute. But the thing that I like to introduce about astrology is not that I’m an avid astrologer. It’s just that astrology gives us a perspective on outer cycles. It’s a reflection of who we are. I don’t think astrology is predictive. I think it reflects who we are in the universal cycle of things. Everything has a cycle. And astrology somehow shows us what’s happening outside of ourselves that reflect what’s happening inside of ourselves. I think that’s why I like to reference astrology. Rebecca was also a speaker at a 2012 conference that I hosted, and she gave us the background behind the astrological configurations of 2012. And if people don’t know what 2012 is, I’ll be doing a show about that in the upcoming weeks. But just to give you a little insight is what 2012… December 21st, 2012 is what the Mayans said was the end of their calendar. It ends at sunrise on the winter solstice on December 21st, 2012. And when we reach that date, people say we will shift into a new time period. So Rebecca gave me some background about that, but tonight…
Maria Marilli
You can almost feel the acceleration, right? I mean, we’re now in this time where we’re getting closer to 2012.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, that’s exactly what it feels like. More people are waking up and more people are going to sleep off. So we’re in a time of huge polarity. So I’m going to do a whole show about that and Rebecca will be on the show. But tonight she is talking about a new planet named Eris. And I thought it was Eros, but it’s not. It’s Eris. So, Rebecca, are you on the line?
Rebecca Gordon
I’m on the line, Alan.
Alan Steinfeld
Hi. Okay, did you hear the introduction?
Rebecca Gordon
Yes, I heard. That was great. Thank you.
Alan Steinfeld
Finally spoke up. Good. So I wanted to say you’re an esoteric astrologer. So you’re not just talking about what’s going to happen in people’s lives and all that, but you’re connecting it to the actual soul’s journey, right?
Rebecca Gordon
Exactly. What we’re looking at, too, is major cycles of our collective consciousness, as the earth. Not just individuals. And in astrology, we can look at individual charts very easily. And another thing which I love to do is look at new planets, new objects being discovered out there, and see how they reflect on the collective consciousness, as us as a whole. So today we’ll be talking about Eris.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay.
Rebecca Gordon
What it means for us as a planet.
Alan Steinfeld
Eris. Now, you have to tell people first that people don’t even know we have a new planet. I mean, they got rid of Pluto, and now they replaced it with a new planet?
Rebecca Gordon
Exactly. I know. There’s been…
Alan Steinfeld
And what makes something a planet to begin with?
Rebecca Gordon
To tell you the truth, this is all constantly changing in the astronomical community. As many of you have heard, Pluto became demoted to a dwarf planet.
Alan Steinfeld
A dwarf planet. Does that mean it doesn’t lose its astrological significance, right?
Rebecca Gordon
I have to say it has absolutely nothing to do with the astrological significance.
Alan Steinfeld
But you know, it could… let me just throw out a question. I know we didn’t say we’d talk about this, but the question is, it was demoted by the astronomers, which found it. When you find a new planet, it comes into the consciousness of the collective. So when it’s demoted to something else, wouldn’t it lose its significance in the same sense in a person’s chart?
Rebecca Gordon
That’s an interesting point. Nobody has brought up before. And come to think of it, the meaning of Pluto, as many of you know, it rules the sign of Scorpio and the underworld. Our unconscious, what’s going on behind the scenes. And as a culture right now, there is one thread where we are pretty much trying to hide a lot of what’s going on behind the scenes as a collective.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, so you think the demoting of Pluto was giving free rein to hide something?
Rebecca Gordon
Well, as a culture, I mean in this war that we’re in and in many other levels, we are in a sense hiding what’s going on. Many Plutonian aspects.
Alan Steinfeld
Like what? Like the conspiracy stuff, is that what you mean?
Rebecca Gordon
Weapons of mass destruction. All of these ideas that are predominating our news and media right now.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. So yeah, okay. We’re hiding something. Yes.
Rebecca Gordon
There’s definitely so much being put under the surface. And Pluto does rule the underworld and all things hidden. So that could have a different correlation there.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay, so let’s talk about Eris, this new planet that was discovered. And tell me what Eris means and how it affects the collective.
Rebecca Gordon
It is so exciting. Okay, on January 5th, 2005, astronomers had noticed that there was something out there, and it was taking such a long time to orbit our sun. Much like…
Alan Steinfeld
January 5th, 2005, like just recently?
Rebecca Gordon
Just very recently. But they did not put it in the media right away because in the astronomical community, they like to study it a bit more first. So we really didn’t get word of this until around August of 2006. Many people didn’t find out about it.
Alan Steinfeld
Wait, let me just ask you, when the astrologers hear that astronomers found something new, do they all just have their mouths water to how it’s going to fit into the new scope of the individual and collective?
Rebecca Gordon
I certainly do. I mean, I can’t wait to start doing research on these new planets.
Alan Steinfeld
Right.
Rebecca Gordon
So 2006, just last year, this thing came into the collective consciousness. Exactly. This is so recent. So these are… The last time a planet was discovered was, of course, Pluto. And when we look at Pluto and Uranus and other planets at the times they were discovered, they will represent aspects in our collective consciousness. For example, Pluto was discovered exactly when the atomic bomb started hitting realization.
Alan Steinfeld
Really? So that’s like a character trait of Pluto is this, would you say, mass destruction or what would you say?
Rebecca Gordon
Destruction and rebirth. Pluto represents the phoenix in mythology. Out of the ashes, you rise.
Alan Steinfeld
Out of the ashes you rise. Look at Japan now. You know, it has risen and it’s really come into a whole new century of culture.
Rebecca Gordon
Yes. I was just going to bring one more example, the planet Uranus. That planet rules sudden change and electricity. That was discovered at the time people wanted freedom, the French Revolution, and that was in 1781.
Alan Steinfeld
So we have this new planet, Eris, which… and what is Eris connected to? Who was Eris?
Rebecca Gordon
Wait, wait, is it E-R-O-S?
Alan Steinfeld
E-R-I-S. Right. Well, in mythology, when we look at it… astronomers and astrologers have spent many days trying to name this planet appropriately. And what would be appropriate? What kind of Greek name would be appropriate for a piece of rock orbiting the sun? I mean, I’m joking, but how would they know what’s appropriate?
Rebecca Gordon
Well, as we know, Mars, the planet Mars is named after our god of war, Ares. And when we see Mars in a person’s chart or in any chart, of a company or anything, it represents the assertion, the drive, and the energy, the passion. Right. And that’s very appropriately named Mars. Venus, goddess of love. So we look at Eris. And you may have remembered Xena, people were calling this Eris planet Xena for a long time until…
Alan Steinfeld
Well, is Xena not a planet now, or is Xena a planet?
Rebecca Gordon
Xena is the same thing as Eris.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, so it’s a kind of semi-planet. So Xena was a kind of warrior goddess type thing.
Rebecca Gordon
Right. Xena is Eris. Eris is just the official name for what people call it.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, Xena is Eris. Oh, who decided to give it the name Eris as opposed to, I like Xena better.
Rebecca Gordon
A lot of people do. So many people were upset about that, it’s really funny. Xena was actually a very appropriate name. It just didn’t have all the mythological significance the astronomers wanted. And in fact, Xena was appropriate for a few reasons. I’ll explain that. Eris in mythology is the daughter of Zeus and sister of Ares, god of war. And Xena most definitely portrayed a goddess of war, in every way. A perfect blend of the masculine and feminine energies.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s Xena, but Eris is what?
Rebecca Gordon
Now, Eris in mythology is the sister of Ares. Not the daughter, the sister. The sister of Ares and the daughter of Zeus. Right. So, in mythology, she was a bit of a troublemaker, and she ruled… she… there’s a few circumstances where she kind of encouraged people, maybe to push forward, take that competitive edge to win the Olympics, or caused them to go into battle. Jealousy, strife, warfare, all of these aspects are Eris. And what we can look at too is, when we see Xena, who’s this kind of blend of masculine, feminine…
Alan Steinfeld
That is coming into our culture? You can feel it.
Rebecca Gordon
What’s that?
Alan Steinfeld
Hi, I’m right back. We’re back. What’d I miss? No, go ahead, keep going.
Rebecca Gordon
Okay. Issues such as gay marriage, church and state…
Alan Steinfeld
Wait, Eris rules gay marriage?
Rebecca Gordon
Well, I wouldn’t want to say Eris rules gay marriage, but I’m just talking about a few things coming into the media right now. Certain states are banning gay marriage. Certain states are saying it’s against the constitution for certain countries to ban it, like Switzerland. I mean, it’s just in the topics, in the media right now. Another thing we’re just looking at predominate aspects in our culture. Peace treaties being signed as well.
Alan Steinfeld
So these are all flavors of Eris, you’re saying?
Rebecca Gordon
This is all like a flavor of the Eris energy that’s now been brought into the planet. Exactly. She might rule lawlessness.
Alan Steinfeld
Lawlessness?
Rebecca Gordon
Lawlessness. Well, it’s the whole discrepancy is, I mean, we look at right now in our culture, things that we have, suicide bombers, murder, death penalty, and war. All of these different kinds, now what is lawful and what is lawless? And this kind of relates to the sign of Libra as well. Some people might say that it could be a co-ruler for the sign of Libra.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, I see. So it’s going to be a planet that’s predominant for Librans?
Rebecca Gordon
I want to point out that it is a dwarf planet along with… they’re calling Pluto a dwarf planet, and Ceres as well. So the three…
Alan Steinfeld
Ceres is another planet?
Rebecca Gordon
Ceres is now considered a dwarf planet, along with Pluto and Eris.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, I see. So, now, you chew, start Eris in someone’s birth chart, how would you interpret it?
Rebecca Gordon
Well, what I’m thinking now, it really takes many, many years to see how these planets are operating in the natal chart. We do see an issue of lawful and lawlessness coming into the picture. And also, a bit like the planet Uranus, disruption of the status quo, society versus human individual rights. There’s a strong emphasis on human rights here. So it could be what we think we are owed as people, what individually we feel is right versus wrong, good versus evil. Are these actual elements? Is it society, is it an earth? It’s this whole polarity influence that is bringing to the picture, which is a clear representation of the scales. So it’s… the earth is trying to find a balance now. I mean, 2005, we had more hurricanes than any other year, and the earth is desperately searching for a balance right now. So the discovery of Eris seems to me as a plea for balance in this world. And right now we especially need it. So this planet surely is appropriate to the time that we’re living in right now. In order to look at how it’s operating in the chart, we do need to do more research, however. But it could relate to all of those things.
Alan Steinfeld
Hey, Rebecca? Rebecca?
Rebecca Gordon
Alan.
Alan Steinfeld
Hi, Alan.
Rebecca Gordon
Oh, sorry, we lost you.
Alan Steinfeld
That’s okay. I’m back. It’s, you know, it is working out the bugs in our radio technology here. But the last thing I remember you saying was that, Eris, you weren’t sure, it had affinities to Uranus?
Rebecca Gordon
Right. Well, as far as lawfulness and lawlessness. And Uranus, you know, is about breaking the laws suddenly. Since Eris is moving so slowly, do you know how many years it takes for Eris to travel around?
Alan Steinfeld
No, I mean, more than Pluto. Well, how many years?
Rebecca Gordon
556.7 years.
Alan Steinfeld
So that’s now a new cycle for us. So, really, because I think you can go out on a limb and just say what you’re real feeling about how this planet is really impacting the collective because I think these planets give us something to be aware of.
Rebecca Gordon
They definitely do.
Alan Steinfeld
So what do you think it is, with all the… because you are an esoteric astrologer. You can… let’s look at it generationally, not personally, because it is an outer planet and it does have to do more with collective consciousness.
Rebecca Gordon
Very much collective.
Alan Steinfeld
So give us a hardcore thing of what it has to do with.
Rebecca Gordon
Think it’s got our human rights. Human rights.
Alan Steinfeld
You think it really is configuring a new level of human rights for our culture.
Rebecca Gordon
You know…
Alan Steinfeld
Just explain that a little bit, and then we… Go ahead.
Rebecca Gordon
Okay. Human rights, I mean, what’s being put in the media now, what people are craving more, I mean, as the planets are coming further and further down, people, we look at the United States, we look at the rest of the world all over. I mean, the weapons, the stakes have been raised everywhere. We’re looking at church and state, gay marriage, this is an issue now everywhere. War is huge right now. So many peace treaties, and also, it seems as more treaties have been signed in the last two years, it’s all about the rights, individual rights and collective rights. And how far is the government infringing on this?
Alan Steinfeld
So this new energy coming in will help add to something, right?
Rebecca Gordon
Yes, it’s really making us aware of our innate human rights, what we’re really allowed. It’s really to open up our eyes to that, I believe.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. Good. Because… And now to just fit it into the whole thing because I know you talk about esoterica, which is the soul’s journey, right, as incarnate beings, as consciousness and all. That is planets that are associated with levels and evolution of consciousness. And so if this new energy is made available, how does that fit into the whole soul’s journey of awareness?
Rebecca Gordon
It’s also connecting us. I mean, people say with the planet Pluto, which was rotating very slowly far out there, it’s connecting us to a deeper level of our relationships, interpersonal relationships. This planet is connecting us on a much deeper level with our race, with our species, with our society, with our collectiveness, connectedness to each other.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, so humanity will in a way start to come together as oneness.
Rebecca Gordon
Exactly. People will begin to start realizing this more and more as, I mean, we’re in a window of it being. It was so recently discovered. So we’ll see more implications of that in the next few years, over the next 50 years or so. More aspects of this springing into the collective. But it is basically about understanding the other on a deeper level, but not like Pluto. This is much further out there. This is understanding the collective, the interconnectedness of everybody as a whole. And our rights in general as people.
Alan Steinfeld
So I would say where this intersects someone’s chart is how much they’re dedicated to giving back to the collective. How much service they want to give to humanity, right?
Rebecca Gordon
I think it deals with service as well as fairness. Fairness is an issue here too, because what is an issue? Fairness.
Alan Steinfeld
Fairness, okay.
Rebecca Gordon
Really, I mean, what we see now in our culture is this greed and lust is so prominent, and many things are being hidden from us right now. And fairness is very hard to find, and people are looking for it. They’re looking for their rights, and people are very confused about this right now. It’s going to be brought into light. There’s going to be a microscope put on our individual rights and our connectivity to each other. But not just to the person sitting next to you, as a whole, to these people on the other side of the world, and to this planet. A level of connectivity in our DNA is going to be raised. And I have to say…
Alan Steinfeld
Wow. Let’s talk more about this on an upcoming show. Can we do that?
Rebecca Gordon
Yes. Sure.
Alan Steinfeld
Just tell people how to reach you and your website, okay?
Rebecca Gordon
Okay. My name is Rebecca Gordon.
Alan Steinfeld
I shouldn’t have said that, sorry.
Rebecca Gordon
Okay. All right. And my website is www.lifepathastro.com.
Alan Steinfeld
Lifepathastro.com. Thank you so much, Rebecca, and we’ll definitely do a show about the 2012 stuff and how that fits into the evolution of our consciousness as well. Okay?
Rebecca Gordon
Sounds great.
Alan Steinfeld
Thanks for being a guest on New Realities.
Rebecca Gordon
Thank you, Alan.
Alan Steinfeld
I’ll talk to you soon. I’ll give you a call later.
Rebecca Gordon
Okay. Bye.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. Thank you. Thank you. That was Rebecca Gordon. We have another guest coming up after this little break.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. This is Alan Steinfeld, back with New Realities. I was just talking to Rebecca Gordon, and she was talking about this new planet, this new discovery, and how that impacts on human consciousness. My next guest is someone named James Fetzer, and he is a… Let me see, I have him right here. He’s a distinguished McKnight University Professor Emeritus at the University of Minnesota in Duluth. He’s at the Department of Philosophy. And the thing I really want to talk to James Fetzer about, although he has an amazing range of topics he does talk about, I want to talk about the evolution of consciousness, the evolution of intelligence, mentality and creativity. A lot of things that I’ve been trying to understand and write about is how we know what we know. What is it that we don’t know? How do we know what we don’t know? And how do we start expanding our perception of… Okay, do we have Jim? We have our next guest?
Maria Marilli
No. Yeah, you know what, I phoned him, he gave me another number, I phoned the other number, it rings, rings, rings, rings, rings, then I tried to phone him back on the number he originally gave me, no answer, hang up, no answer, so I’m just, we’ll get him, hopefully.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay, try him again. He gave you another number. I’m going to try him on my phone and see if he picks up actually. And is there a number to reach you? Are we on the air now?
Maria Marilli
Yeah, we’re on the air. I’m going to try him, I’ll try him right now on the number you gave me.
Alan Steinfeld
I’m trying him right now. He did give you another number. He did, but he’s not answering it.
James Fetzer
Hello?
Alan Steinfeld
Hi, I think he’s calling you now, right?
James Fetzer
Yes, this is a number that no one answered. Or, this isn’t the first number I got. But no one… but the second number doesn’t work.
Alan Steinfeld
Oh, so call him on that 608 number, okay? Wait, maybe this will work. Maybe I can phone it right there… I’m going to try it on this line. You know it could be these VoIP lines won’t connect up to certain lines, you know? And that could be… Oh, there he is. We got him. We got him on this other line. Okay, we’ll put him on right now. Okay, great. James?
James Fetzer
Yes.
Alan Steinfeld
Are you with us?
James Fetzer
I am indeed.
Alan Steinfeld
Are you on the cell phone or the house phone?
James Fetzer
No, I’m on a landline.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay, great, great, great. No, I was looking at the topics that you’ve been studying and interested in, and this is exactly the kind of things I’ve been researching, which is like the evolution of cognition. How do we know what we know? How do we bring things into the articulation of our reality? I mean, this is why I do this show. I call this show New Realities. Did Paula tell you about it?
James Fetzer
Yeah, she mentioned it to me, yeah.
Alan Steinfeld
So it’s about perceptions. How do we expand our perceptions of the world around us and form a cognition? And a recognition of things around us, and then we call that reality. Is that sound like the stuff you’ve been studying?
James Fetzer
Well, I’d put it a little bit differently. I mean, for example, there are constant properties in the world that are usually referred to as the laws of nature, laws of physics, chemistry, biology, for example, you know, that when the temperature hits 32 degrees, if you’re dealing with pure water at atmospheric pressure, it’s going to freeze. If it’s above that temperature, it’s going to be liquid, and so forth. If you get above 212, you’re going to have it in the form of steam. So you know, here you have an interesting substance that can be a gas or a liquid or a solid. But because of those laws, we can actually create a coherent picture of the world, even though other parts of it are constantly changing.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, so the laws that we define nature also confine us in nature as well. Don’t you think? I mean, I’m going a little further.
James Fetzer
Well sure, because these laws cannot be violated, they cannot be changed, and they require no enforcement, unlike say, laws of society like a speed limit law. I frequently test that law, and I’ve discovered regularly that it is possible to violate that law.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay, right, of course. But so the laws of nature are how we make sense. The science is understanding the laws of nature.
James Fetzer
That’s exactly right. The aim of science is to discover the laws of nature, physics, biology, psychology, and so forth.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. So how do other things like miracles, things that seem to come outside these established laws of nature come about?
James Fetzer
Well, the question is going to be largely empirical, as to whether there are actually genuine examples of events occurring that violate what we take to be the laws of nature.
Alan Steinfeld
So you don’t really buy into that stuff at this moment. Let’s just state… I mean, I’m just throwing that out there, because you know, I believe that things seem to seem to come outside the laws of nature. I mean, there are things that sometimes are unexplainable within the laws of physics.
James Fetzer
We have so much evidence supporting the laws of nature that in order to justify a claim that a law of nature has been violated, it must be more improbable that those who are attesting to the violation are wrong than it is improbable that the law has been violated. That’s a very high standard.
Alan Steinfeld
But the other thing is, let me just ask you… I’ll just pick up where you said. Is that perhaps we don’t know the whole law. I believe there are definitely laws of nature, but perhaps we’re only seeing the surface of the law, and not seeing the full scope of what the laws of nature really represent.
James Fetzer
Yeah, I’d pause it slightly differently. What it means is that for a statement of a law to be true, you have to take into account the presence or absence of every factor whose presence or absence makes a difference to the truth of the law. So if you exclude some factor, then you can have a statement that seems to be exceptionless, but actually when those unspecified variables are taken into account, you do have exceptions. It’s like if you talk about striking a match and you talk about the chemical composition of the match and the way the match is struck, and that the match is better dry. If you don’t specify oxygen, then if you go to an oxygen-depleted atmosphere and try to repeat the same experiment, it won’t light, precisely because there’s no oxygen present.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, so there are countless variables that seem like within a specific law of nature, right? I mean, there’s lots of variables.
James Fetzer
Yeah, there’s going to be a set of variables and there are relevant variables that make a difference to the outcome you’re interested in, and that specifying the values for those variables is going to allow you to test the hypothesis that you’ll get a certain outcome under those conditions.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay, I’m with you. So how does consciousness now fit into the laws of nature? What is consciousness? And how does it fit in?
James Fetzer
Consciousness is an extremely interesting topic. My views about consciousness is that the mind operates in terms of things that stand for other things. These can be things that look like other things, like photographs, films, pictures, realistically characterized as opposed to say abstract art. It can be causes or effects, like smoke stands for fire, fire stands for smoke, ashes stand for fire. Elevated temperatures and red dots can stand for the measles. Or there is a third class of what are known as signs, which are symbols.
Alan Steinfeld
Yeah, this is studying signs and symbols, epistemology, all that, yeah.
James Fetzer
Right, these are habits or conventions because they don’t look like, and they aren’t causes or effects of what they stand for. Words like chair, horse, house, and in German or French or whatever, of course, you have a different set of symbols. So those are merely habitually associated to what they stand for. Now, my approach to consciousness, what it is to be conscious is relative to a certain class or type of signs. And you’re conscious when you have the ability to use signs of that kind, and you’re not inhibited from exercising that ability, as you might be if you were blindfolded, or if you had a bad cold.
Alan Steinfeld
Well, give me an example of what that means.
James Fetzer
Well, suppose you come up to a red light at an intersection, okay? Now that red light at the intersection, if you understand signs of that kind, there are different levels of consciousness here. You could just recognize it as an icon, which is something that resembles what it stands for, maybe the red is the same color as your wife’s dress the last time you took her out. Or as a cause or effect, you know, maybe if you’re a maintenance worker, you come up there and you see it’s stuck on red, so you realize you gotta correct the mechanism so it’ll change to orange and to green and so forth. But if you’re a driver, for the rules of the road, you know what that sign means by habitual association, apply the brakes and come to a complete halt.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, so there’s definite signs that in our culture that mean definitive things. Right. And so in terms of consciousness and the evolution of consciousness, how are signs evolving within a particular society?
James Fetzer
Well, let me give you another example because if you look at, for example, high schools where you learn the syntax of how to string together the symbols that are the words in English. So you get a grammar school and English is a very important component of our education at the elementary and secondary level.
Alan Steinfeld
Right, exactly.
James Fetzer
And that enhances our capacity to communicate with other members of our community and to cooperate in the accomplishment of community goals, which is why sharing a common language is really an indispensable condition for a community to succeed.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. And then consciousness fits in there with the ability to interpret these signs on levels of meaning?
James Fetzer
Yeah, it’s very interesting. You start talking about perception. There are two ways to think about perception. One is as describing experience by means of language. But another deeper way is to think of subsuming sensations by means of concepts.
Alan Steinfeld
Let’s say that again. I think that’s a good point.
James Fetzer
Subsuming sensations by means of concepts, rather than describing experience by means of language. Because most languages are just words we use to refer to concepts.
Alan Steinfeld
Right.
James Fetzer
What they mean is the concept. Now, take the concept of a child encountering something that it can throw, it can roll, it can chew, it can bounce. It forms the idea of things that have all these properties of being squishy, round, rolly. That’s the concept of a ball that is developing. Or maybe a source that is warm and nurturing that you can suckle and receive milk. You form the concept of a breast and the mother that goes with it. Or maybe you can draw with and you can mark on the ground or on paper with different colors, and you form the concept of chalk or maybe crayons.
Alan Steinfeld
So concept then sort of in a way, and Joseph Chilton Pearce said this, the concept starts to replace in a way the actuality of the experience, in some sense we lose our connection to what’s present because we translate everything then into a concept.
James Fetzer
Well, you can’t interact with the world without concepts. What’s interesting, you see, is if you define perception in terms of describing experience by means of language, then only species that have a language are going to qualify. And yet it’s pretty clear that cats and dogs and other species are able to interact with their environment in appropriate ways by virtue of having corresponding concepts, even if we might argue over whether or not they have a language.
Alan Steinfeld
Right.
James Fetzer
A perfect example is the vervet monkey. The vervet monkey has three different alarm calls. One alarm call stands for an airborne predator. And when a vervet monkey makes that sound, then all the other vervet monkeys rush down and hide under the brush. It has a landborne predator sound. And when it makes that sound, then all the vervet monkeys rush up into the trees to get away from say a leopard. And then it has a third kind of call. And when the vervet monkeys hear that call, they climb down to see if there’s something slithering around like a snake that they might find interesting to play with. So here you get the idea of the concept is what it means to you in terms of whether it’s a threat or a promise. And how you should interact, all the, roughly all the ways you would interact in relation to there being a thing of that kind.
Alan Steinfeld
Well let me just ask you about those monkeys because were those then calls that were taught to the tribe of monkeys or was it more instinctual response to a certain sound, or was it learned behavior?
James Fetzer
That’s a very interesting question. I gave a lecture about this subject at SUNY Binghamton, and a woman in the audience who was a cognitive ethologist who studies the thought processes of animals and how it affects their behavior pointed out when I used this example, or another for say mountain gorillas, some of the sounds they make. She said those are very common calls that were shared by many different species in the jungle. And that’s very interesting because it sounds as though they’re cultural phenomena that are probably acquired. I doubt that they’re instinctual or inborn, and yet there’s a cultural legacy of using those kinds of sounds to represent those kinds of threats or features of the environment.
Alan Steinfeld
So where does language arise, where do meanings like, who is the first monkey to say this means that? I mean, then monkeys have their own culture in a sense is what you’re saying, right?
James Fetzer
That’s correct. The example I’ve used, I have a book entitled “The Evolution of Intelligence: Are Humans the Only Animals with Minds?” And I talk about animal minds and primate minds and human minds. And it’s a rather fascinating course of development here in the use of signs of different kinds. The mountain gorilla for example has like 10 different kinds of sounds that it makes that affect the behavior of other gorillas. And this is certainly a proto-language in relation to a human language. You need to analyze these things from the point of view of the function they fulfill in communication situations. In English for example we have declarative sentences that make assertions like that it’s ten o’clock. We have interrogative questions that ask questions like what time is it. We have exclamatory sentences that express emotion like damn. We have imperative sentences that issue commands like be quiet or hurry up. Now if you look at the mountain gorilla, it turns out the mountain gorilla actually has counterparts for each of those four kinds of sentences, which is a rather fascinating result. This is one of the most interesting aspects of my research in this area, to discover that there are species, other species than humans, that have used modes of communication that fulfill all four of these different kinds of functions.
Alan Steinfeld
So we don’t really know the origins of it but we could talk about what cognition really is, how we learn, how learning and creativity take place.
James Fetzer
Well I think… obviously people have studied language from lots of different points of view. And I frankly think that some of the basic ideas that underwrite the whole syntax or grammar actually I think is not as basic to language as is simply the acquisition of words that stand for properties or features of the world. And when we reach a certain degree of semantic complexity, when we have too many nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and so forth, then we need ways to organize them. So that syntax actually turns out to be an emergent property. It’s a property that shows up later in the evolution of language than the foundation. This is a view that directly contradicts the position of Noam Chomsky for example.
Alan Steinfeld
Noam Chomsky says syntax shows up… and it makes sense, but then you know in the older language it seemed…
James Fetzer
He argues the syntax is innate and species-specific, right? But his views, which have been developed in the form of a thesis called the Language of Thought by Jerry Fodor, Fodor goes even further than Chomsky and says we don’t even have an innate syntax, we have an innate semantics. One of the problems with that thesis is the semantics has to be so complete and comprehensive that the most primitive man had concepts for jet propulsion, color TV, polio vaccine. It turns out to be a very implausible thesis when you analyze it rigorously.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. So what do you think then? Where’s your understanding in all that?
James Fetzer
Well my view is that concepts are fundamental in that a lot of them are acquired, some of them are innate. In the simplest species, the lower species, they only operate in terms of, as it were, innate stimulus-response behaviors that are essentially genetic and inborn. So you can have an evolution taking place when you have variation in the gene pool so that you get different responses to the same stimulus. And then the responses that turn out to be adaptive or more beneficial tend to evolve in subsequent gene pools for the lower species. But when you get to the higher species, especially human beings, we enjoy a lot of behavioral plasticity and cognitive versatility so that we can invent and extend our language, for example, which gives us the capacity to make models, mental models of the world that enable us to get around far more successfully than if we have to wait to find ourselves in a particular environment and anticipate what to do at that time.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. So these mental models are evolving with our culture. They’re articulating new emotions, new…
James Fetzer
That’s right. The capacity to invent new ideas, to conceive of things, to take things to the next level of something that hasn’t been known before.
Alan Steinfeld
So do you think we’re constantly creating an unknown evolution?
James Fetzer
Well this is exactly true. The advent of the internet for example enables people to communicate far more rapidly, far more frequently over great distances than could ever be done before. I mean that’s a way in which computers enhance communication between humans. That’s a huge benefit right there.
Alan Steinfeld
Right. I mean I know it’s a benefit but I just was wondering if you see a bigger picture and this is we’re almost out of time of how computers will evolve the whole culture to the next level of interaction and being together and creating a greater society?
James Fetzer
Well I mean obviously it’s a lot like automobiles. You know, I mean the automobile brought about a lot of benefits because it enhances our mobility, our capacity to travel distances in amounts of time. And there are all kinds of refinements that take place with automobiles that some can travel faster, more comfortably with more amenities. And with computers they’re great for communication and for processing and solving certain classes of problems that are especially ones that are difficult for humans to undertake. So it’s a great supplement to human problem-solving ability. But it’s not the case that computers can replace human minds, which have distinctive properties that computers lack.
Alan Steinfeld
Well what are those distinctive properties? The ability to create something out of nothing? Our ability for novelty and invention? That’s something a computer will never have. But I do think computers will propel the society to another level of cohesiveness and harmony. That is where I’m really going with it.
James Fetzer
Well I would like to believe that. And that we’ll all be able to have complete freedom of access to our computers and the government won’t seek to regulate them and use them against us. But I’m afraid there’s… I don’t know of any technology that has the capacity to extend the power of a government that a government hasn’t sought to use to extend its own power. So I mean that’s a great danger today. There are notices out there, reports that the Pentagon is viewing the internet as an enemy and wants to control it. So I think all of us have to be very concerned that the government may try to crack down on the internet. That’s one of our last bastions of freedom of speech and freedom of inquiry and freedom of communication.
Alan Steinfeld
Well James, I’m really glad you put that in there because that is probably the most important thing is to keep our freedom, you know, and that’s why radio stations like this one, bbsradio.com are very important because it gives a greater power of speech. If people want to get in touch with you or reach you or find out more about you, what would you tell them?
James Fetzer
Well, you can just do a Google, just do a Google on Jim Fetzer, and you’ll find my homepage, my academic homepage, and you’ll find all my books and everything. You’ll find a lot about me right there. It just starts off and says Jim Fetzer was born in Pasadena.
Alan Steinfeld
Okay. That’s F E T Z E R, James.
James Fetzer
Right. Right.
Alan Steinfeld
Just like the wine. Thank you for being a guest on New Realities. And I’ll give you a call soon.
James Fetzer
My great pleasure, Alan. Thank you for having me on.
Alan Steinfeld
Thanks. Thank you. Maria, that’s like that’s another show, we’re almost out of time. Do you have anything to tell our guests?
Maria Marilli
No, that was great. I was enthralled.
Alan Steinfeld
But what about signing off? What did you say about people’s realities that you wanted to tell them? You had a little saying that you wanted to end with. Go ahead, what was that thing that you came up with?
Maria Marilli
Oh, about, are you sleepwalking through your life? Is it time for a wake-up call, people? Wake up, baby.
Alan Steinfeld
And thank you for watching New Realities. My name is Alan Steinfeld. And I’m here with Maria. What’s your name?
Maria Marilli
Maria Marilli.
Alan Steinfeld
Maria Marilli, of course. And you can catch me every week on bbsradio at 6:30 PM California time, West Coast time, or 9:30 East Coast time. And you can reach me at newrealities@earthlink.net. Check out my website which is newrealities.tv. And I’m gonna end with a song and I always take phone calls. If you have any comments about the show you can always call me at 212-473-6388. I’m going to have some very exciting upcoming shows with Bruce Lipton about the evolution of consciousness. We’re going to do more UFO shows. We’ll probably do some more astrology. We’ll talk more about art and science. So thank you for listening and I’m going to end with this song by Duke Williams and the Extremes called Night Before the Future. So this is it, Duke Williams and the Extremes.